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> Generic Star Trek, The Contractual Obligation Thread
NiteFall
post Jul 1 2012, 10:18 PM
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It also didn't have the originality of the original series, the depth of characterisation and consistency of storytelling of Next Generation or the character evolution and plot arc of Deep Space 9.
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Silky
post Jul 1 2012, 10:20 PM
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Yeah, but I was a teenager. tongue.gif
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GundamGuy_UK
post Jul 1 2012, 10:25 PM
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Voyager was shit. It was shit when it aired, and I can't see it becoming better with age.

TNG and DS9 is where it's at, and the movies of course.
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NiteFall
post Jul 1 2012, 10:31 PM
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There are a few good Voyager episodes, even in the first season, where it was "Look an anomaly! Let's spend an hour trying to get home before being disappointed and carrying on!" every week. But I would say the genuinely good episodes of Voyager are about as numerous as the genuinely shit episodes of TNG. DS9, owing to a weak start, falls in the middle for me.
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GundamGuy_UK
post Jul 1 2012, 10:34 PM
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I think even the rubbish episodes of TNG are still good to watch because the characters were all great. I hated everyone on Voyager, apart from that holographic doctor who was okay.

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Silky
post Jul 1 2012, 10:35 PM
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Clearly my opinion is invalid and I have committed some crime against Trekkies.
It's okay though, Galactica would kick everyone's arse. tongue.gif
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GundamGuy_UK
post Jul 1 2012, 11:10 PM
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I tend to group TNG, DS9 and Voyager together because they were all set at the same time (give or take a couple of years), and when you look at them together Voyager is just inferior in every way. Not even Q's appearances could save that show.

It might have something to do with being the first show not created by Gene Roddenberry, but it just didn't feel right somehow. But the main problem I had was that I hated the entire cast. TNG's crew may have all been a bit too perfect, but they were all so lovable. DS9's cast were similarly great and memorable. Voyager's were just poor.

I might perhaps be being a bit unfair, I've not seen an episode since 1998 or so. All I can remember is loving TNG, loving DS9, and hating Voyager.
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NiteFall
post Jul 1 2012, 11:33 PM
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A big problem with Voyager is that the characterisations were really uneven. so you'd have a character being vehemently opposed to something in one episode then doing exactly that in another. Also Robert Beltran was just awful in every way. He claims he was acting badly on purpose as a protest against the poor writing, but having seen him in a couple of other things, he is just shit.
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Raven
post Jul 2 2012, 10:56 AM
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Having watched Voyager through on Channel One last year, for the first time since it originally aired, I'd have to say that it wasn't as bad as I remembered it being. It certainly has its flaws; the lack of continuity and poor character development being my main problems with the show, but most of the time it isn't that bad.

Also, have any of you watched TNG again recently? Yes, it is the show that got everything rolling, but by God it also has its share of mediocre and outright bad episodes (not only in the first couple of seasons, when - as like all Trek series - it lurched around trying to find its course, but right the way through). It is just so bland and twee in places, probably because everyone is so squeaky clean. The show does have some of the best Trek moments, and arguably the franchise best actor, but there are an awful lot of dull, ploddy stories there as well.

DS9 is the best of the three, to my mind. As Kei said it takes a while to get going, but once it does it accelerates like a piano falling out of a window. For me it works better than the other series because it uses its characters (both main and supporting) better than any other Trek series, and it tells a good story.

If I had to rank the series in order of preference I'd have to go: DS9, TOS, TNG, VOY/ENT*

* I don't think Enterprise every really found its place, in the same way the other series did. The third series probably showed best what it was capable of, before it got mired in the fourth series in a string of self-referencing stories (good though some of those were).

QUOTE (GundamGuy_UK @ Jul 2 2012, 12:10 AM) *
It might have something to do with being the first show not created by Gene Roddenberry...


DS9 was the first series created without input from Roddenberry (it was developed with his blessing by Berman and Piller). Personally, I think DS9 is furthest series from Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek because of all the conflict in it (Voyager was closer in format and ideals to TNG, after doing away with the half-hearted Maquis story line).
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NiteFall
post Jul 2 2012, 11:16 AM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 2 2012, 11:56 AM) *
Also, have any of you watched TNG again recently? Yes, it is the show that got everything rolling, but by God it also has its share of mediocre and outright bad episodes (not only in the first couple of seasons, when - as like all Trek series - it lurched around trying to find its course, but right the way through). It is just so bland and twee in places, probably because everyone is so squeaky clean. The show does have some of the best Trek moments, and arguably the franchise best actor, but there are an awful lot of dull, ploddy stories there as well.


True, but for every episode like Shades Of Grey there was an episode like Darmok or The Inner Light. I think a lot of what made TNG so good was that it allowed the writers to explore a wider spectrum of ideas and stories than a lot of other shows. As the opening narration says "Strange new worlds, new life and new civilizations" and in it's best episodes it really capitalised on that.
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GundamGuy_UK
post Jul 2 2012, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 2 2012, 11:56 AM) *
DS9 was the first series created without input from Roddenberry (it was developed with his blessing by Berman and Piller). Personally, I think DS9 is furthest series from Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek because of all the conflict in it (Voyager was closer in format and ideals to TNG, after doing away with the half-hearted Maquis story line).


You're absolutely right, I don't know where I got that idea from. And you're also right in that it strays (quite to its credit) from Roddenberry's bright vision of the future.


I have to disagree with you on TNG, though. Whilst I'm sure there's some nostalgia going on as well, I think every episode of TNG is at least enjoyable and watchable. As I said before, the characters may all be a bit too perfect, but they're all so lovable and I just loved seeing them no matter what they were doing. Every episode had its moments, its funny little lines and so on. I think it's more a case of some of the episodes being so incredibly outstanding that it makes some of the others look weak; taken as a whole they're all great.

There are some episodes of TNG that I think rank among the best sci-fi ever written; proper hardcore sci-fi. I can still remember the first time I saw "Measure of a Man" and was just blown away by how it deals with Data's identity.
EDIT: Here it is

This post has been edited by GundamGuy_UK: Jul 2 2012, 11:51 AM
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NiteFall
post Jul 2 2012, 12:55 PM
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True, when it was firing on all cylinders TNG was (and still is) absolutely untouchable as a piece of speculative, thoughtful science fiction. But there are some real stinkers in there that I wouldn't want to watch again. Having said that though, I think it also works well because it has the most rounded cast of all of them. The classic example is Data, a character that, if not for Brent Spiner's fantastic performance, could have been the absolute epitome of dullness, but there really aren't any weak links in the cast at all. Except possibly Marina Sirtis, but I feel that's more because Troi was a bit of a problem character and the writers never really knew what to do with her. If you watch the episode Disaster though she's fantastic in that, because they finally actually gave her something to do other than sit there and go "I'm sensing hostility" as the aliens blast away at the Enterprise.
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GundamGuy_UK
post Jul 2 2012, 01:43 PM
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Troi was rubbish for the first couple of seasons, with her silly fake accent, weird leotard thing and frizzy hair. Season 3 is when everything kind of falls fully into place on TNG (Riker gets a beard, the uniforms are improved etc), and I seem to remember that's when Troi becomes a bit better. You're right though, of the main characters she is the weakest. But then she also wasn't in it as much as the others either; sure she was there, but she didn't really do much.

The less said about her drunk acting in First Contact, the better.

This post has been edited by GundamGuy_UK: Jul 2 2012, 01:44 PM
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gulfcoast_highwa...
post Jul 2 2012, 03:25 PM
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And the less said about her fucking mother, the better. I turn off it's one of her episodes. All useless.
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Raven
post Jul 2 2012, 04:08 PM
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The best TNG episodes are amongst some of the best sci-fi ever shown on the small screen, but with hindsight the really good episodes are a lot thinner on the ground than I think most people realise.

For every episode like The Inner Light or Tapestry, there is a Sub Rosa or some interminably dull episode about Worf and Alexander bonding.

QUOTE (NiteFall @ Jul 2 2012, 01:55 PM) *
I think it also works well because it has the most rounded cast of all of them.


I would say the DS9 had the most rounded cast. Hell, they even managed to squeeze in a lounge singer and make it work!

QUOTE (gulfcoast_highwayman @ Jul 2 2012, 04:25 PM) *
And the less said about her fucking mother, the better. I turn off it's one of her episodes. All useless.


But she was surprisingly good in DS9.
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