Stuff the technical jiggerypockery, Lets say I download Star Wars Ep III.

Lets say I have my ticket stubs from seeing it at the cinema, I've ordered it already from Amazon, I own all the other films already.

Is downloading it now from a none legit area of the web wrong?

Now I know it is illegal and I do not condone getting something for nothing, but how about getting something you have paid for already at a poor quality because you want to see it now?

Sort of like knowing you are gonna walk into a surprise party well in advance of the actual party.

It's not as good as the party, but it's good to know there'll be one

Thoughts please anyone?

-m0r

EDIT: Yes there is a typo in the title - you try correcting it!

I didn't actually vote because my feelings are ambiguous on this. I do not download anything illegally. However, one of the main reasons for that is my lack of understanding of the technology (like file-sharing etc).

I think your argument is unique, however. You have seen it at the cinema and will definitely own the DVD once it is released, so you are not denying anyone their money by having a downloaded version of a film. It is those who have no intention of paying for anything who are doing wrong.

Whatever my beliefs, all I can say is that I definitely wouldn't download Revenge of the Sith - but I probably wont even buy it. Pile o' shite!

Not denying that, but I've a long history with the Star Wars franchise and it means something to me.

Hows about...erm...LOST. If you have ordered each boxset and pais for it, it's just a matter of time before it is released, would you download and watch up and coming episodes of that?

-m0r

Like Jessop I don't download things illegally, mainly due to my lack of technical knowledge but also because I believe that people should pay for things, rather than stealing them. It's not that I think that downloading is destroying the movie/music/gaming industry, I think those who say so are overexaggerating somewhat, but I just don't think it is morally right.

Having said that, I think an exception could be made in cases where someone intends to spend money (or already has) on said product. This is the primary reason why I don't out and out hate illegal downloading. It can be justified, but only if the person will spend some money, rather than just downloading it and not planning to spend any money on the item in question.

This is a sort of non-argument. As far as I can see there is no reason not to download something if you have paid for it already, albeit in a different form.

I assume you mean season 2 of Lost, in this case, considering the first series is already out on DVD?

Yeah, erm I meant if you had preordered it from Amazon or other such site, it was merely a matter of it being sent to you (which may take a while) - Can you justify watching say a a bittorrent from America.

And in other news...

Taping stuff off the Beeb, like Vic'n'Bob, is that illegal? (I'm presuming we are all TV license payers here)

-m0r

Its a tough one. As a rule, i don't download anything which is available to buy, however a number of anime series are only available as a grey area fansub. The difficulty arises when they are later made available. I recently downloaded Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence. Now, this IS available as an import DVD from america, but hasn't been released in the UK. However it is in native Japanese and the subtitles are hearing impaired captions that take up a third of the screen and include things like [dog barks]. I consider this fine to download. I wouldn't download LOST though, because its on TV and available on DVD.

I didn't vote because nothing really matches me.

I believe this is legal currently - especially as there is not any official intention of releasing any of the Reeves and Mortimer BBC shows. But I wish they bloody would!

I don't like film piracy at all, I think this is because I love cinema so much. Though how will it work in the future Will it be like literature where copyright runs out after 100 years?

I have never downloaded any TV shows, but I don't think I'd have any great problem with this (especially not British TV shows - I pay my license fee). I will watch TV shows my little brother has downloaded, but am fairly good at turning down any new releases he has lurking on his hard drive. That said I did watch 'Anchorman' on his laptop - but bought it the next day!

Home taping's killing music kids!

I've been offered pirated downloaded copies of stuff like Attack of the Clones before they came out, but turned them down because of quality issues, and having to watch it on a computer first. I want the cinema experience first and foremost.

Another excellent point, with something like 'Attack of the Clones' having the cinematic experience is vital. If something is particularly epic and impressive on the big screen I will go and see it more than once; Jurassic Park 4 times, PoTC 3 times, RoTK and FotR 3 times, Finding Neverland twice, The Two Towers *ahem* 7 times etc. Anchorman doesn't need a big screen experience, but by the time I watched the downloaded copy it was already on DVD anyway so I could buy it afterwards.

Indeed, my esteemed colleague; you are of course, correct.

I can't work of what PoTC is though...

Yup, copyright does run out on films too. Over at Archive.org's site they let you download films where the copyright has either expired on the company who released it is happy for it to be downloaded for free.

Night of the living dead is available for free there!

-m0r

Should have been a little 't' for 'Pirates of the Caribbean'.

Anything with Orlando Bloom and a sword is worth seeing multiple times on an epic scale.

Funnily enough though I only saw 'Troy' the once on a big screen.

if one takes a look at the laws of the land, i believe that you will find that you are only permitted to keep material that you have recorded from the television for a maximum of 48 hours.

although this law may have changed in recent revisions of the law.

this is now becoming a growing concern though as tivo's latest software upgrade allows broadcasters to flag certain programmes for deletion after a certain date.

I used to be a right whore of all downloadable things. Now I have cash, iTunes and Amazon/Play are my friends. I am no longer a cheaparse.

Actually - SkyPlus has a similar thing with Sky Box Office. It only allows you to keep them for a week.

I will watched downloaded programs. Mainly American stuff that I am too impatient to wait for the UK release. But the way I see it, if I had no intention of buying the DVD boxset anyway, and was just going to watch it on Sky when it was released, then where's the harm? I generally don't burn copies to watch again and again, or to sell. I treat it like television and watch once and delete.

When you buy films from Front Row it has a message at the start saying they 'can't' be taped. My Mum (bless her) of course took this literally and never taped any of the films she bought, imagine her surprise when I told her the hidden truth!

My god that was an awful film. Since when did Archilles even make it into Troy? -he supposed to die before the Trojan Horse is built surely. Not even Eric Bana could save it.

Most can but some, I've found, actually can't- you just end up with a blank screen on your video. Unless this is just my bad luck. Either way, it sucks.

I actually gave it four stars when I reviewed it (hell that was an epic review), but I couldn't work up the energy to watch it again.

When I was 9 or something, my friend showed me how to download music and stuff the illegal way. I didn't feel morally just about it so I stopped, and I am thankful for programs like iTunes so I can legally download. I think as long as you buy the album/DVD shortly after trying it before hand is fine, as long as you pay for what you stole.

Ok. Well, the problem is making the whole 'I was going to buy it anyway' stand up in court, which is a little difficult to prove. Whatever way you look at it it's piracy, and the problem also comes that even the uber-honest downloaders that really are going to buy it end up endorsing the suppliers who don't say "I'll let you download this so long as you buy it later".


I nearly got myself into trouble when I was working on a party for a load of film distributers. The AV guy found my copy of Star Wars Ep II and put it onto the 10m video wall. This was long before the film came out on release. I also found out that FACT were at the party too. Great!

Oops.

I think m0r's argument is possibly more defendable than simple piracy - he could prove that he has paid for an official copy of Star Wars, for example.

<BBC Voice>

Video piracy is a crime, do not accept it. Demand a genuine video cassette from your video store. Poor quality illegal video cassettes reduce your viewing pleasure and jeopardize future film production. When in doubt telephone the federation against copyright theft (FACT) on oh-one-eight-one *something* double six four six

Enjoy thr movie

</BBC Voice>

or something like that

-m0r

I want to return this copy of 'Trainspotting'

What's wrong? Not enough trains in it for you?

No, it's just a block of cheese.

"Now I know it is illegal and I do not condone getting something for nothing, but how about getting something you have paid for already at a poor quality because you want to see it now?" - M0r

That kind of answers itslef. It's illegal.

I think the prosecution would argue that you have bought the DVD, not the rights to the film. Each format has it's own copyright I believe. Same reason you can't copy a music CD and lend it to your friends cos you don't actually have any rights to the film itself, just the disc.

However, I like the thought that you can buy a film once and then see it wherever you want... like pre-ordering it then going to the cinema and demanding free entry cos you've already bought it.



PS Im just playing devil's advocate here as Jessop will probably attest to.

PPS <disclaimer>To anyone from FACT reading this forum... the views of it's members do not necessarily reflect the views of the board administration. </disclaimer>

I love that advert. Fireman James can quote it verbatim, including phone number.


I think we need some facts here - although the point about not owning the rights is a good one.

Ok. I've emailed FACT to get a definative answer. Will let you know what they say.

Yeah, but that's not 'cos the copyright expired so much as they never actually did copyright it... Some production snafu or another.

That said, while I do have severe ethical and moral objections to downloading films (et al), in general, I don't find your position particularly reprehensible. I don't know the legality of it, but, like you said, you already paid for it. And, depending on how early you preordered your copy, the money you paid could very well have accrued some interest in the interim. So, while your generosity is allowing the company coffers to (presumably) perform better than they would had you simply waited for release day and paid on the spot, you are seeing no similar benefit.

Not only are you not not paying for it, you're enabling the companies involved to make even more. Granted, it may not be much more, but I doubt they're losing money on preorders. And by paying that early price, you're also not likely to be receiving any of the inevitable promotional discounts.

In any case, the studios can yell and scream about piracy 'til the cows come home, but it's not going to go away. But it's not like they're destitute. They're still seeing hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars of revenue every year, while at the same time clamping down on free and unfettered access to competing media -- I'm looking at you, DVD region-encoding -- and moving all of their productions out of this country to save a few bucks. Films used to be an ideal economic boon for small, cash-strapped areas with plenty of scenery to offer, but now, unless you offer the studios tremendous tax incentives and freebies, you've got about as much chance of landing a major Hollywood production as you do hosting the Olympics.

That's beside the point, though. But it's not like they're losing that much money, at least not to piracy, as near as I can tell. The music industry, for example, complains about declining CD sales. I am part of that problem, in that I have only purchased about a dozen or so major-label releases in the past 7 years. That's not including used CDs, of course.

It's not that I'm stealing the CDs I'm not buying. It's just that, in my estimation, the CDs I'm not buying just tend to... well... suck, at least compared to what I'm looking for. The big labels have all gotten away from what I want to listen to, so why should I reward them with my hard-earned dollars? I'll take my money to a small, independent label that can better serve my desires.

It's the same for movie tickets, with me. I'm not downloading the movies I'm not purchasing tickets for, I'm just not bothering to give them the time of day. If there's a film out there that looks good, chances are I'll go see it, but most of the major-studio schlock of the past several years just leaves me cold. Stop releasing crap like "White Chicks" or ripping off the work of other, better individuals, and maybe I'll buy a ticket to your movie, Mr. Big-Time Studio Executive. But I steadfastly refuse to pay $7.75+ for the "privilege" of seeing "House of Wax."

May Vincent Price curse you from beyond the grave!

I like how you brought it back to Star Wars, nice writing indeed

(For the record: My long time dead Grandfather took me to see Episodes IV and V and then died, my Nana took me to see VI, whilst I took her to see I and II, she died prior to me seeing III with her, by days. Generally you couldn't catch me near a popular item ever - just Star Wars)


-m0r

I'm (mostly) with Moriarty on this one. Indiscriminate downloading is a bad, bad thing and people shouldn't do it, even as a 'taster'. But I don't have a problem with people downloading things that are not commercially availble so long as they buy the product once it becomes available. For example, I downloaded all the episodes of the Mighty Boosh after it had been on BBC3 as I didn't ever think the BBC would release a DVD of it. As soon as they did, I bought it. As far as I'm concerned, owning those downloads was no different to having taped the series from the TV.

Similarly, I've got all the episodes of Fist of Fun - the BBC are never going to release that, and more fool them. It's possible that this sort of downloading can be used to force companies to listen to fans more; if you can demonstrate there is a demand for the product, they would be stupid not to cash in on that.



This is slightly different, though. If you've downloaded something, watched it and won't buy the commercial product then you've got something for free and the makers have lost out.

And then stuff gets cancelled. Sometimes DVD sales can be the difference between a show making it into its next season, and it getting cast into the dustbins of television history. Take a look at Family Guy - if it wasn't for the fact that it did so well in DVD sales, the fourth season would never have been commissioned. On the other side of the coin, the fact that Carnivale's Season 1 didn't do the business in DVD sales is cited by Clancy Brown as the very reason the bottom fell out and HBO decided not to renew it.

But I have actually bought this film (not the rights to it, but I wasn't going to release it myself or allow for viewing outwith my home setting - Schools must be up to some BIG shit when it nears the summer holidays BTW [LATS alllowed]) so my watching it prior to release may make Amazon a few bob that I could have made on interest, it may make Lucasfilm miss out on a few bob if Amazon hold onto it until release day, I don't mind, Lucasfilm weren't gonna get my money until release day anyways. And I only buy the shit I choose to buy, I haven't even seen White Chicks, I'll never see Pearl Harbour and my kids won't watch Bratz or any other franchise shit (Just He-man, Transormers and Thundercats - and the Star Wars movies)

Crime, so was saying evil existed prior to the 11th centuary, and after that if you said evil didn't exist you were committing a crime.

Times change and it is hard, welcome to an everyday joe life corporate entity, watch out or a mutation will wipe you out.

Ah! Sunday afternoon nonsence

-m0r

Doctor Who?

I don't think downloading is so wrong if there's no chance that it will be available for purchase in the UK - I recently downloaded an episode of a Japanese TV show called Densha Otoko (The Train Man), which has no hope of ever being broadcast in this country. However, if there's a film or album I want from abroad, I will always import and pay for it instead of just downloading it.

Regards Episode III, in your case m0r1arty, as you are already purchasing it, it seems it would be justified - but remember, good things come to those who wait! I've never understood watching a cheap, knock-off crappy quality version of something you really want to see, when a colossal cinema experience should really be the first way to experience the film in question. But as you've already done that, watching the crappy version after the cinema and before the dvd should be okay...

I don't think its entirely correct though. When you buy any copyrighted material, included in the price is a licence for you to view it. The same as when you buy a computer you have a licence to use the software on it etc. In the UK, that licence allows you to backup whatever you own. So if you had already purchased something, and not received it, you could feasaily argue that you own a licence to hold a copy or view the material.

If you owned the 'rights' wouldn't that mean that you specifcally owned the revenue stream generated by the copyrighted material?

I suppose the butt miners that are lawyers might suggest that you own the right to view it in a certain format.

Mind you you can copy your CD's into mp3's legally so thats that stuffed

-m0r

Intersting debate. Still not heard from FACT, but I guess they don't work weekends, or they're too busy at various bootsales.

Schools (if they are being good) buy what is called a PPL, which is also what DJs, Clubs, Pubs and so on have to get. The Public Performance License allows you to provide public performances of whatever your specific license states, i.e music, tv, film etc. It's a bit like a TV license, which brings me onto the next one...

Fair enough you can wait for something to be shown free on TV, but it's not really free cos you have bought a license to watch TV, and a percentage of that goes to royalties for films and programs.

When I said owning rights, I should have stated I meant paying royalties for the media ;-)

When I have done events where we want to show TV or a film, we have to pay money to the company, even if we all own a TV license and have the DVD. Again, it's about royalties and companies making money.

Ok, the film companies aren't destitute, but it's also the distributer that makes money off our film buying. Here's a fact from FACT: "The UK industry lost in excess of £9 billion to intellectual property theft in 2002, not including online copyright trademark infringements". I'd say that was quite a large amount of cash money.

Lastly, cos this is quite a large post now, downloading stuff that has never/will never be released again is all easily justified, but the problem is copyright and royalties i.e it's still (unfortunatly) illegal.

The other issue (if you can completely prove you were going to buy the DVD/Video/CD) it's very hard to prove that you weren't going to distribute it. And distribution rights only get sold to one company (for film). I think most people get done on this, rather than just downloading.

Oh, forgot to add. I think most MP3 players have built in cleverness which will stop you from making a second copy from the MP3 (if recorded digitally). I think you're allowed to copy your music to another format, but only once at the same quality and so long as it's for you, not for a mate's mix CD.

For your last point there mrjester, if its electronic then it can easily be copied, FACT. No Jiggery pockery will change that (well unless its in the MD5 styled encoding)

If you can hear/see sense it you have it.

As for the rest, I didn't know schools had a license, I've watched many a film at school that I'm sure they hadn't applied for (even pirate ones) but alas that was back in the days of VHS.

-m0r

Same here. Though, even if they did have a license, I doubt it would have allowed them to screen all those pirated Disney videos...

Sorry, I was trying not to go into sounding like a geek! lol What I meant was CDs have an inbuilt doohikey that is enbeded in the music. When you take a digital recording of a CD (via something like an optical cable or SP/Dif). If you then try and do it again from that recording it scrambles it. But yeah, anyone with a computer can pretty much do anything with CDs/DVDs/Video/LP et al.

Schools are supposed to have a PPL. But I think half the time they dont... Thinking about it though, don't educational establishments come under different guidelines anyway? I know they get cheaper software... another questions for FACT I guess.

i havn't read the whole thread so i might be talking about something someone has already said but still

i download alot of stuff, so i would be a hypocrite by saying it's wrong but i am just gonna say some facts.


I listen to Old School Hip Hop (white lines, hip hop, be bop(don't stop) from SotD kinda stuff) and alot of the songs i like are out of print and the only way i can get these said songs is by ordering them off sites like eBay or Amazon, but my father (i'm only 14) does not allow me to sign up with his credit card because of scamming and such, now the only way is to either search crap stores that only have Eminem and that kinda shit, but i can't find the songs i like... so i download the songs off a P2P program like Kazaa or Soul Seek... i still buy CD's when ever i have the money/and can find them (i still buy CD's that have nealy all the songs i have already downloaded) - not an excuse but an explanation.

same with "Spaced" i downloaded that (don't flame! please) because of the same reason but if it ever came to Australia i would still purchase it.

*puts on flame resistent armor/helmet and equipts long sword of P2P searching*

Here at work we have a Public Administration Licence issued by the Copyright Licensing Agency which allows copying and reproduction of a number of printed works and journals, as well as some digital media. Exclusions include specific publishers etc. I wonder if there is a similar audio or video licence?

As far as non released material although legally the matter is still black and white, the actual situation is a little greyer. For example, as I mentioned before - fansubbed anime that isn't released over here, and probably won't be. By the letter of the law it is illegal but the Japanese publishers have only very rarely actually tried to stop the practice, and are generally considered to allow it unofficially.