I saw an advert for this program and feel like it's a bit harsh, i mean i'm not Mr Dohertys biggest fan but this program just seems so voyeuristic. I don't know if this is just how I feel, but it just seems a wee bit perverse and unfair to the poor sod. Having said this, I will probably end up watching it...

I think Im gonna watch it just to see what its like, if I dont like it, Ill turn it off. Simple as

Having read the reviews I'm looking forward to it. The film is as much about the "filmmaker" and his attempts to befriend Doherty as it is about Doherty himself - apparently they both come out of the film looking like a couple of desperate individuals. I personally think Doherty is an overrated pile of crap, but still, interested in seeing it.

I don't want to watch it, I think that after everything Pete Doherty's been through, this is just a kick in the nuts for him. The press have been all over him like a bad case of eczema, and the novelty of seeing a crack addict all over the papers has worn off. I don't want to see another junkie on the telly too, and it'd be best if we all just left him be, crack addict or no crack addict.

I like Pete.
I might watch it with the sound down.
I wanna see him, but don't want to listen to that desperate bloke who made the show. He seems a bit like the sad kid at school who was finally allowed to hang out with one of the cool kids, but when he inevitably got told to fuck off, is trying to get his revenge with this doc.

Or something.

Seeing as Pete Doherty is probably one of the most overated musicians this country has produced in a long while I'll pass on this one.

As far as I'm concerned, Pete Doherty gave up all his rights to any normal humane treatment a very long time ago.

Did he kill your child or something?
blimey.

Yeah, what happened?

I hadn't even heard about this program until now. I don't know if I'd want to watch it, I really like Pete and I think I'd just find the program sad.

Is no one else with me in thinking of him as the single biggest waste of space to walk the planet?

What, worse than Robbie Williams? Or Richard Blackwood? Or that Ross-haired bearded XFM cunt who's all over the fucking telly at the moment? Where's your sense of perspective sir?

well i've said it before and i'll say it again - you may not like him or his music but you can't deny that doherty has been one of the most exciting and charismatic people around for a long time.

these days he's just tabloid fodder but he and the libertines really revitalised the live music scene in london a few years back, and we are still having to listen to wave after wave of libs rip off bands with not a tenth of their personality or punch.

its a shame when all the hangers on and fame seekers try to ride on the back of someone successful and thats whats happened to doherty. everyones trying to get a rise, a reaction or a story out of him but forgetting what made him so [in]famous in the first place. i feel sorry for the guy.

I do feel sorry for the guy but if you're in the public eye why indulge in behaviour thats going to cause negative media coverage and unwanted attention? He should make the effort to lay low for a while and sort out his drug problem, plenty of people have tried to help him.

well i think he is trying to lay low but if you've got journalists following you around thinking you're fair game - and some guy with a camera - its pretty hard.

it just comes back to the argument about papers saying something is 'in the public interest' when they've created and fed that interest.

Nup.

I think of him as an overrated yet moderately talented musician with severe personality problems caused by his lifestyle. But just why do musicians persist in this self destructive behaviour, another example being the dickweed Johnny Borrel - it's not rock 'n' roll, it's fucking stupid.

huh? is that a cross between nope and yup?

you see, i think talented people should be allowed to indulge in self destructive behaviour. it makes their story more interesting, but it only really counts if you can say they have genuinely achieved something, or made a difference, or had an impact on people's lives.

so doherty in my eyes is allowed to do the whole rock'n'roll cliche drugs thing but idiots like the painfully dull borrell are just shown up for the no-hopers they are.

Nup.

I'm sure I saw it in an Iain Banks book, so it must be scottish.

Aye. That would have cocked up Derren Brown's little mind trick yesterday.

all i have to say is that pete docherty drug use is just glamourised and hopefully this show ,will show hw not glamourous it is ....Thats the most sensible thing Ive said all day!

I'm sick to death of seeing him in the papers (apparently kissing Kate Moss in public warrants a whole page in the Sun today). Not only because its not in the public interest but also because it in a way gives him the attention he seeks - though not necessarily for the right reasons, but "there is no such a thing as bad press". He's now (almost) a household name.

He's not an overly amazing talent whose music was elevated into somekind of saviour of rock'n'roll by music journalists who don't seem to have a record collection older than 10 years.

He was a constant seeker of the limelight - he turned up at court hanging out of the sun roof of a car playing his guitar, seranading his waiting fans - then proceeded to cry his way out of a sentence and after boasted to the press that he got away with it by "putting on the waterworks"! Jesus, the NME named him the coolest person in the music last year. Seriously, what is cool about a junkie that shits on his friends & fans, and refuses any help that is offered to him.

For the sake of his health, sanity and relationship, I think he should lie low, straighten himself out and get rid of the sycophants that surround him. He then may have a chance to prove himself as "cleaned up" talent (like Nick Cave) as opposed to dead junkie tabloid fodder (like Sid Vicious)

Very well said indeed!

To be fair to Pete he has cleaned himself up a bit now, having had implants done to prevent his cravings, and he has been busy recording Babyshambles debut album in order to avoid the tabloids.

It wasn't as if Pete sought all of this attention, the tabloids only locked onto him in any serious once he started going out with Kate Moss, partly because they thought he'd make an interesting target, and also because they could take Moss down a peg, considering how much she has sued tabloids in the past.

I don't think that Pete is a great modern poet or whatever, but he can write half decent pop tunes, is charismatic, and can really generate love between himself and his audience. He may have behaved adversely over the past few months, but he has been off his head on crack, and we can't really appreciate what that does to someone in a stressful situation unless we have experienced it.

Rant over

Except for the fact that one of the first tabloid stories about him was when he gave an interview for a 5 figure sum!

He needed the money to fund his addiction, not that i'm defending him for it, but he really had a hit a low at that point and crack was pretty much the only think he had left

When's this on by the way?

10pm Tomorrow on Channel 4

Thanks

I know it's only half way through so far, but I hate the filmaker. And some of the fans are such twats, admittedly I am a bit of a fan but even I don't say some of the shit that they do

Max Carlish is a twat. And the thing is, this could have been so good. I like Pete Doherty, I feel soory for him and I think he is essentially a nice chap who is use as tabloid fodder. But really. This guy is an appalling journalist. I could have done better.


BAFTA award winenr? Gah.

This is a brilliant farce!

Gods, I hope none of this is real.

Ugly mental twats, one 'em doing the snaptwig with Moss?

Fantastic!

I love spoofs, me. This one is almost as competent as Spinal Tap.

I thought the whole thing was fascinating. Pete Docherty and his entourage came across as the cool kids who like to have a laugh at the expense of those deemed less cool than them. I never understood the appeal of Pete or the Libertines. I don't find their music ground breaking or even that interesting. But I can see how to certain people he is an icon.
Max Carlish quite obviously has some pretty severe mental problems. I think more than anything this comes across in his desperation for everything to be about him. This wasn't a documentary about Pete Docherty, this was about Max's desire to be seen as important. I didn't hate him, I felt genuinely concerned for him.
I have to admit that I dislike Pete Docherty slighly less having seen the documentary. However, I still cannot find anything about him that interests me. He's a kid playing at being a rock and roll star. Everyone loves him because they wish they could do the same.

Of course. Everyone wants to be a rock star. I don't like what he's doing to himself, but there's something exciting and fascinating about the whole business.

I guess it just makes me sad that people worship him to that extent. why does he deserve that love? why use all that effort worshipping someone that doesn't care about you. oooh, its getting me annoyed now.

and i wanted to hit the students that max took to the nottingham gig so much. grrrr.

Just watched the programme.... my god.

It wern't so much about Doherty, as the sad geek who followed him round for close to a year. He started off bad, then got worse and worse and worse in his own self obsession, self importance, and definitely self love over Pete Doherty. Believe- this guy was seriously unhinged, living in a world where he and Doherty had a relationship, and where everything Pete did was in response to something this fat geek had said or done. He wormed his way into Pete's inner circle, and basically got bullied, without him even realising it.

Obviously in the end this guy sold all the pictures to the press, and it ended in sweet justice with Doherty puttin dints in his head.

Those who dint see it- find the repeat.

And for the record, Pete Doherty is a musical, poetic and charismatic genius, those who aint fans, or at least can't see what it is about him- aint music fans.

no. no no no no no. there was never any justice in the guy getting beaten up. Yes, selling the pictures was a mistake, but i think its quite funny how it all backfired on pete. everyone knew the kind of thing that carlish had been filming, yet nobody thought he might actually use it. he was just a joke to them.



sorry. i just really don't see it.

that was just shocking. i mean, seriously, that 'filmaker' has serious problems.

i only saw it from halfway through so I don't know if he started off normal, but by the time i got to it he was a stalker with a camera. and he obviously fancied himself as a tortured soul, lighting cigarettes on camera and quoting nietsche ( he's a german philosopher ).

and by the end i was seriously concerned for the guy's mental health. it was worrying - it was almost voyeuristic.

What utter toss.

Well, I think there was. They didn't think this guy'd ever use the stuff because lads like this basically trust each other. Obviously with this guy the trust was totally misplaced, but in that kind of circle people are chilled- trust is explicit it doesn't have to be earned, or at least thats how Pete will have used to have seen it. He might think differently now and for that reason alone Carlish had it coming to him.

But reflecting on my last post, I think that Carlish is clearly ill and delusional, so maybe deserves a morsul of pity. Don't know if anyones seen that Internet video of that fat kid trying to be a Jedi knight, but the end where Carlish was dancing around to Electric dreams definitely reminded me of that. Sad sad sad.

Or an opinion? I don't know your age, but I'm guessing its a good deal older than Doherty, therefore won't be in tune with his generation. So... in a way your opinion doesn't really count, just as mine doesn't when I talk about Stone Roses, The Smiths etc.

I'm only assuming, because anyone who talks like "utter toss", is either 35+, or lives in Kensington.

So anyone who likes these bands has an invalid opinion when refering to more contemporary artists ? That's such bollocks.


It's a matter of opinion whether people are fans of Mr Dorherty and his music, musical preferenes deviate from one person to the next. Just because someonne isn't a fan of him doesn't mean they 'ain't real music fans'.

Yes, but to be fair I qualified it with "people who can't see why he's so loved" or words to that effect. So basically its not about being a fan, but at least seeing what it is that makes him special. Which is what I'm saying when I say I'm not a massive Beatles fan, but wouldn't turn round to someone saying 'Lennon's a genius' and say utter toss- or even complete crap cos' they're meant for a different era.

It becomes an invalid opinion when the opinion is an extreme negative one in the face of all facts.

df

I wasn't going to post here, I don't know much of his music , and don't really like him.

There are a great many people (what you might call a majority) that can't see the what makes him "special", which isn't really the case with Lennon.


Not really. I'm in neither of those criteria, yet the second thing I thought of when reading your post was "total toss", after "utter bollocks" that is.

A smiilar response was evoked by reading


Yes. Old people are crap and stupid, aren't they? And obviously have no idea when it comes to taste in music.

You're obviously a fan, so I'm ready to say to you fair play, though I don't find his music (not that I've heard a great deal of it) particularly moving, and find him rather a twat.

Rather than try to make up some stupid arguement about the fact that you do like him being due to your demographic, I'll put it down to a difference of taste and opinion.

Er, then you were right first time, don't post.

You. Don't. Know. Of. His. Music?

So which part of my posting was utter bollocks? The part where I said he was a genius?, if so you can't comment having never heard it.

Or the part where I say people of a different generation who can't connect with his music shouldn't really criticise? As, if you mean this part then clearly you've just proved me right by saying you don't really like him, but yet "don't know much of his music".

No, I'm saying better than "old people don't know about music", I'm saying its true both ways. I don't know enough of Rolling Stones, Sex Pistols etc and that generation to comment on it (though I've took the trouble to listen), and I believe people pontificating about music they will never understand are either being at worst ignorant, and at best clinging onto some semblance of youth understanding that most likely left them many years ago.

df

Almost all of it so far.

I often find myself wishing I understood the mindset of somebody decades more ignorant than me.

I can comment so will.

I'm probably one of the oldest members here. I buy CDs every week. Been to 1000+ gigs. Have over 3000 CDs/LPs. Have both Libertines CDs and a few singles. Have seen them twice live. And I'm afraid in my opinion the Libertines are very average - a fourth rate Clash, a third rate 60ft Dolls, second rate Chas'n'Dave.


On the basis of the TV show though, whether you like him or not there are a few conclusions you can come to. All this bollocks about him being charismatic - what's charismatic about shambling about wide eyed, surrounding yourself with sycophants and cracking piss poor jokes.

Loved the bit when the editor of NME was saying how charismatic he was and "how else could he make so many covers off the music magazines" (so his music is'nt good enough to get him on the cover!). Well there really is only one music paper in the country - the NME - and up til his tabloid exposure thats probably the only place he appeared on the cover - abot 10 times in 18 months!

It was a show about a fuck up surrounded by sycophants being stalked by a sycophant fuck up.

Sigh, i can't believe i registered here just to post on this thread. Ok, defending Pete Doherty we have Groghead, who is making some pretty poor arguments for his side. Then we seem to have just about everyone else. Now i suppose i should start by saying that i do love the Libertines, i find their music truly emotive and as Pete is the main songwriting talent behind the group i personally belive he must be very talented. Being in a band myself i know how hard it is to write a half decent or catchy tune.

However, it seems pretty reasonable that some people wouldn't like it, i can see why people wouldn't like the music. But i have to say that the tabloids only picked up on him once he'd reached the top - the Sun didn't discover his band playing crappy bars round London and they didn't get him signed to a record label so i think you can't debate that he deserves his current status; the fact that the tabloids are now plastering him over the front pages is just to sell copies. It's an interesting story and is generating public interest otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. The music industry is cripplingly competitive and so hard to break into, a lot of people have to like something before it stands a chance of making it big. And the public at large, contrary to popular belief arn't stupid. In the music business untalented people don't get to be famous (except of course sometimes in band manufacturing situations, and even then the labels arn't gonna choose someone who cant sing to front up their boy band.)

What i'm trying to say is that i couldn't give a damn about whether you like Pete as a person or if you hate is music - what gets me is when people knock his talent, calling him a media-made tragic figure. Sure it's tragic, but don't forget he must have had something to get there in the first place. The drugs are a bit irrelevant, an over hyped aspect of him in my opinion. There are a lot of people addicted to drugs, it's not news.

I don't really want to bring Max Carlish into this, it's a bit too depressing. All i'll say is that it looked like Pete was doing his very best to be nice to him, insufferable though he was. Even if everyone else around didn't even bother to try and stand him, Pete seemed nice enough to tolerate him, at least for a while. Longer than i could have anyway.

Aside from Pete i don't understand this whole age/generation thing affecting how legitimate my view on bands is. I'm only 17 but i'll be damned if i can't have a good conversation about the Sex Pistols with someone older than me; there's no fundamental difference is there? If Led Zep burst onto the scene tomorrow as opposed to however many years ago it wouldn't change anything, the songs would still be great. And if you're going to say you had to be there then i'm afraid that the seventies really weren't all that different to today; you think kids back then were any different to us?

nicely said.

Like you say, pete didn't really become famous in the mainstream until the tabloids latched onto him. interestingly, i read pretty much all the media coverage of the altercation with carlish at the time. and surprisingly enough nowhere was it mentioned what a delusional, self important man carlish is. the media coverage was totally one sided in that aspect, and i think that is where alot of people's opinions on docherty have been formed.

before that, for a good year, maybe more, as has been said, he was lauded by the nme as a genius. i think i got a bit tired of all this because it seemed like there was nobody else worth talking about in the rock press' eyes. when he's being held up as a hero for being a drug addicted criminal offender its hard to actually care about him. yes, 90% of the music inductry is fuelled by drugs, but i see no reason to applaud someone for being an addict, as quite frequently happens.

the bottom line i guess is that i have met nobody that has met him and has a good word to say about him. i dont mean fans, or people who are already his friends, i mean people who have worked with him, interviewed him etc. i find it hard to care about someone that has little courtesy for those that support him in his career. it just grates on me that there are probably much more worthy musicians who are being overlooked because they do not make such good press.

Good point

I agree with you about the NME's coverage of Doherty before the tabloids got hold of him. Although i have to say rather than put me off Pete it turned me from NME. It was a little hypocritical of them to focus on his glorified rock and roll lifestyle then leap to his defence when the tabloid papers started saying exactly the same thing, but of course the readers of the tabloids hold a fairly different view on rock and roll lifestyle than the readers of the NME, so Pete comes off in a bad light to everyone.

Maybe my personal bias against the NME is getting in the way here but i can't help but feel that it is a big like a music fashion magazine - the writers at NME are telling me what's cool, and they have a very narrow view on the music industry - it's all indie these days as i suppose that's what they decided is in this season. Other styles of music barely get a look in.

And much as i love The Libertines i agree with a post made earlier asking what exactly was so charismatic about him, watching the documentary he just seemed to move around in a drugged haze, not very exciting and i think this relates to your point in that i think drugs are the reason he gives so many people the brush off or silent treatment. Not to give him an excuse - it's his fault. But i try to seperate my views of the musicians from the music. Classic case for this is Oasis; the Gallagher brothers are clearly wankers but they write some good tunes.

hmmm. i think thats where my problem lies. in effect, its a pointless argument because if you like his music, then you can see the genius behind the man. in my case, i don't like the music and can't really see what is so brilliant about it. but, this is merely my opinion, and i would never say that someone who thinks docherty's music is brilliant was wrong. so....i guess that leaves us at you either like him or you dont. damn.

oh, and the nme are cunts. this everyone can agree on.