Ok , this thread may well recieve a barrage of abuse by fans of bands that are supposedly 'better' as they are more technical in their musical output, but that isn't the point.

Was wondering whether you guys thought punk to be dead , or just clinging on , or indeed thriving.

Thanks

"Punk died the day The Clash signed to CBS"

Nah , tis shit at the moment as supposed 'punk' bands such as Greenday and Good Charlotte have tried to fuck it up , but it's still there as The Exploited are still going (seeing in July ) as are various other second wave bands.

I can't claim responsibility for that quote as it was Mark Perry what said it. I agree with it though. Punk was never a genre. It's not a type of music.

There's a big part of me that really wants to say it died with sid or maybe with the clash in the mid 80's but there are so many bands that took it on and made something new and more of it like Operation Ivy and early Missfits. As of now though i'd say it's complete monkey piss and 90% of the bands out there now don't deserve to carry the genre title.



Very much agreed with in a sense it's grown into that. At the start it was just a rebellion against the hippy culture in general but i really do think that what came out turned into a genre of music with it. It may not of been at the time but it certainly has become it now.

yep. next!

It is a type of music , but it's also a way of life , which i'm not naive enough to believe I can ever be fully part off as I don't live in a run-down city(Milton Keynes isn't as bad as all that yet) and I wasn't part of the scene in the 1970's or 80's, but I try to be as 'punk' as i can , if that is in any way an accurate measure of being involved in the music.

Ooooh my favourite topic!

Punk died before Sid did. As far as I'm concerned, when the Sex Pistols toured the USA (and then split) - the worldwide media circus that accompanied it killed it off...it became mainstreem.

It was born in the early 70s in New York, and to a lesser extent, Detroit, with The Stooges, Velvet Underground, Patti Smith, MC5 etc and stayed predominently in those cities. Then was adopted and mutated into the British Punk movement..then died. Sid's death wasn't the end of the punk movement...it was a sad, pathetic little epilogue where an, albeit great looking, clothes horse tried to cling on to fame and was exploited to cash in on what had become a mainstreem movement.

There seems to be a misconception that punk is about spikey hair, snears and fast/loud guitars - at least that's what seems to make a "punk" band these days.

The US Punk roots were about revolution, poetry, (sexual) politics, hedonism, art, and great music
British punk was about nihlism, apathy, being anti-establishment, fashion and great music
Modern "punk" is about huge record sales, looking "cool" and the occaisional catchy guitar-pop tune

I really should stop reading about the subject - I tend to get a little carried away on it

I'd say that 'punk' in the form that it had in the 70's is, if not dead, then at least heavily distorted and being traipsed around as something that it isn't. Good Charlotte, Simple Plan etc have taken on the style and sound but none of the attitude or idelas of it.

However, I'd say that punk has lived on in other genres of music, it has been subsumed into popular culture and has survived in a more intangible form.

For example, Sostie described US Punk as being ''about revolution, poetry, (sexual) politics, hedonism, art, and great music''-did not some of these ideals get incorporated into early rap such as Public Enemy and NWA? They may not have sounded 'punk', but they had similar ideals and, again, made great music and inspired a whole generation of rap artists. The fact that most rap has gone decidedly downhill since then is besides the point.

Likewise, the roots of British punk: ''nihlism, apathy, being anti-establishment, fashion and great music'', were taken up by the post-punk movement, especially Gang of Four and Joy Division et al., and these groups are now heavily influencing the new breed of 'post-pop' bands such as Bloc Party and the Futureheads (admittedly, the 'Heads aren't all that political musically).

It is true that what is billed as 'punk' these days is not in fact so, but as Whitey pointed out, punk was not a genre, it wasn't a type of music, it might not even have been an attitude, the whole phenomenon defies definition butr whatever punk was in the 70's elements of it stills urvive today.

Plus there are still bands (such as the Exploited) which carry the torch for old school punk.

I voted for 'just hanging on', because my favourite band in the world (along with the Chili Peppers) is The Clash. But then I also really love Green Day, so I can't really say it's dead when I like a pop-punk band. It's a hard thing to explain I suppose.

Wow, that's the best overview of punk that I ever read. Everyone has their say about what it is & where it started, but you are obviously very knowledgeable.

I hate that everyone says that Good Charlotte are punk. They are not punk, they're pop music. They don't even sound punk. What is classified as "punk" music these days isn't. It may have it's roots in punk, but it's its own animal.



AH, very good point. I totally agree with you there. If you think that you're punk, than you're obviously not. It's all about the attitude, and I don't mean "I am an anarchist, I am punk"

And I am to believe that punk is dead because the NY home of punk, CBGBs, is about to fall to gentrification of the neighborhood, likely to become another Starbucks.

Let me guess..you like The Exploited Is Big John Duncan back with them. Used to go and see him in Goodbye Mr MacKenzie (with Shirley Manson...I mean she was in the band, we didn't go together) everytime they were in town. He used to look very odd...this huge peroxide haired Scotsman playing the dinkiest bright yellow guitar!! Wrote some good pop tunes though.

It is strange that the bands that try and emulate punk get nowhere near it. The successful/best ones are those that either adopt aspects of punk - Public Enemy, the Acid House movement - or are influenced/evolved from it - Joy Division, Guitar Wolf, PiL

Surprisingly enough I'm not a fan of the Exploited, i like some of their stuff but I only said them because they had already been mentioned and were the first band to come to mind when I was talking about current bands that are, a-hem, ''old-school punk''

Why thank you...but I guarantee at some point I will shoot myself in the foot in the future and say something stupid like "..went to see Elton John last night and it was the best punk gig I have ever seen since Sum 41"

I'm hoping CBGB's holds out til October for my intended trip to NY. Is Max's Kansas City a Starbucks now?

You'd think that all the successful bands who have played CBGB's over the years would have put up some money to save it or tried to get it declared a cultural landmark.

Very true , and it's somthing not realised by any of the new generation of pop-punk shite.

I believe this Avril Lavigne quote takes the biscuit for pure anger inducement, it's so bloody wrong it makes me teeth itch.

'I created Punk for this day and age. Do you see Britney walking around wearing ties and singing punk? Hell no. That's what I do. I'm like a Sid Vicious for a new generation.' Avril Lavigne

It should be. There are rumblings that it's being threatened and there have been fund raisers for it. Nothing definite yet. Maybe they can save it, but I doubt it. It may end up getting moved somewhere else, but that's always a death sentence anyway.



It's some sort of eatery.

A lot of people thought the same about The Marquee and Rainbow in London. Sadly economics is a more powerful factor than "modern" cultural history




So can we expect her to OD while on a murder charge? Is she admitting a complete lack of musical ability?
The irony is Britney has been more rebellious than Lavigne.

Fuck! The end of CBGBs. Not good at all.

I've always thought punk was an ethic, not a sound. Bands like The Ramones, MC5 and The Stooges gave the word punk a general sound, but I think it should be applied to any underground scene - ie one that doesn't require media attention to thrive. To use Black Flag as an example, their sound changed a lot after 'Damaged', but they were no less 'punk'. The problem was many fans thought a change in sound meant they weren't punk anymore. The scene seemed to disintergrate in the 80s into factions who didn't think the others were punk, completely missing the point IMHO. Dead Kennedys 'reformed' a few years ago without Biafra on vocals - that's most definitely not 'punk'.

This is a song by Jawbreaker, who were darlings of the SF scene in the early 90s, until someone decided they had sold out:

You're not punk, and I'm telling everyone.
Save your breath, I never was one.
You don't know what I'm all about.
Like killing cops and reading Kerouac.

My enemies are all too familiar.
They're the ones who used to call me friend.
I'm coloring outside your guidelines.
I was passing out when you were passing our your rules.
One. Two. Three. Four.
Who's punk what's the score?

Got a friend.
Her name is Boxcar.
Cigarettes and beer in El Sob.
Her hair was blue, now it's green.
I like her mind.
She hates the scene.

My enemies are all too familiar.
They're the ones who used to call me friend.
I'm coloring outside your guidelines.
I was passing out when you were passing our your rules.
One. Two. Three. Four.
Who's punk what's the score?

You're on your own.
You're all alone.

Oh, and should you say Hi. Ya know they are planning a Spaced get-together in NY for October.

Yea , but somtimes the sound changed terribly.Discharge morphed into a terrible Led-Zep inspired mess.The vocals just didn't fit the music like Plant's did.
I think that the true 'golden age' ,if it ever existed , was from 1980-83 as this was the age when punk was ditched by the media , the first wave bands had turned new wave , and a succesion of short lived , great bands came along.(Broken Bones)

I agree with John Lydon. He hated being labeled a punk. It's an artificial term. Once you introduce rules to music the joy get ripped out of it. Just enjoy music for whatit is without getting bogged down in politics.

I am HUGELY sorry about the completely unneccesary length of this rant *blush* but I can't sleep!



I agree with this completely. I am not into punk music, so I'm not sure I even have a right to comment, but I always wished I had've enjoyed the musical style because the lyrics are often so much more meaningful, with political leanings, there's substance to it outside of 'my significant other dumped me and I am sad' (which seems to be largely what I listen to actually ). I remember reading a lot of Dead Kennedys lyrics when I was younger and just thinking - that is so cool, but I just didn't like the music.

Anyway my point is I don't get these little self contained genres, I remember reading an interview with Kyuss, who as far as I'm aware grew up on a diet of the stuff, who were talking about how the local 'punk' bands where they came from couldn't play in rivaling cities as this was obvious indiction of 'selling out'. Is that not the very epitome of conforming, you're just assimilating into a different group and it looses the bloody fun!

Look at Tim Armstrong, who co-wrote some of the awful (I think) tracks with Pink. Now while I don't condone this, he wasn't afraid to it. Was that not exactly the sort of revolutionary attitudes that coined the punk explosion? Doing something entirely unexpected and not accepting reprimands? (I'm actually not clued in enough to the scene to know how rancid are viewed amoung the punk community and I also think it was a stupid thing to do but erm...its just an example...)

Unfortunately what I think we have ended up with in many music scenes is an 'indier/punker/metaler than thou' attitude which I just don't get.

Look at Opeth (again am not huge fan of death/black-progressive metal or whatever you want to call it by any stretch of the imagination, I just listen to a lot of music) they spawned a masterpiece in the form of Damnation and yet they were nervous about its release because it was solely clean vocals, no growls. I actually hate telling people I like it, because I think I am exactly the sort of person who many people fear will enjoy it, proving they 'went soft' and yet the tracks are fucking awesome!

I think it's sad when you don't allow arists to grow. The second you contain music inside some sort of box you have just lost its purpose, Anti-flag called it 'punk by the book' and that's totally it. I think the second people started living it like that, it died.

(...I need a sleeping tablet ...)

I feel it's in it's prime for one main reason: Main Stream success. I am not saying that shit is "punk" by any means, what I am saying is that it's much easier to dedy something that is sold in Wal-Mart. As I played tag in wal-mart I came across a girls dolls. The "Bratz" have a punk line now, evidently. They have slogans like "Party like a punk" and things like that, it's quite funny. Punk has fooled everyone into believing it is this big great thing you can make so much money off of, but the fact is that no matter how many time you throw the word "Punk" in cut out letters on something, the true "Punk" wins. I realize I am talking about "punk" like a living person, and sorry about that. I don't know if I have really explained this the way it is in my head, but let me put it this way: I feel it has become to popular and accepted that there is nothing left to do but defy it, so the whole original punk idea of defying comes full circle, you have to stand up against the mainsteam acceptance of "punk" and the "punk fashion" (as if there ever was). And just say fuck you. It's gotten to the point where instead of people saying "what's on his head" they say, "oh that's a cute mohawk." Not to say that a mohawk ever made anyone "punk" but it use to make the dumb fucking yuppies start to wonder your sanity, and that, in my head, made me happy. I realize I ahve rambled and probably didn't make any sense at any point, if you want me to take more time and explain my idea of this in a more constructed way, just PM me, thanks.

I've got a big book about punk at home and having read it, I believe the truth of the matter is that Punk was a social product of it's time that does not transfer to today as the socio-economic and political drivers have changed. However, the punk ethic still resonates as strong as ever. Don't be afraid to be yourself, don't be scared to do something that conflicts with the established views, get creative and self sufficient, speak your mind and let your voice be heard, embrace new ideas, look great doing it. Today's punks have no relation to the punk ethic or the punk movement of the 70's. Punk's a word that has changed it's meaning more times than you can shake a shitty bicycle chain at. The type of person punk represents changes every couple of decades.

It's fun telling modern 'punks' (or NOFX fans) that punk is dead.

I also like telling boys in cravats that mod is dead.

I'm just mean like that.

I admit that NOFX have little resembelence to first or second wave punk , but they are still distinct from the newer bands such as Greenday or The Offspring.They have been going since 1984 and , in my opinion , sound much better than the aforementioned bands.

But you have a lot of Panache (not the dodgy perfume though I wouldn't put it past you)

No, that's just my natural musk.

They usually just sit there and take it. I think boys are scared of me.

"You're not a punk, you're middle class" etc. etc.

I don't think it's worth getting worked up about. After all, it's just a categorisation, either of the way someone behaves or a type of music. In terms of music, the genres are there as a way of vaguely describing music to someone who hasn't heard it. They're not there so they can enforce a strict set of rules on what can and can't be done in your songs.

People make the music, a genre attempts to vaguely describe it (since you can't accurately describe something like music properly). Or at least that's the way it should be. Too often it's a case of people pick genre and make music to fit into it.

If I'd never heard of NOFX (which isn't the case, I quite like them) and someone said "they're punk", I'd at least have a starting point in imagining what they sound like. I'd know they weren't likely to sound like Celine Dion or something.

What are you forum frequenter's favourite punk bands anyway?

Amongst my favourites would be The Clash, Dead Kennedy's and The Ramones, along with a host of other bands who I like but those are the three who I genuinely do love, with the Clash being the overall winners.

London Calling=genius

Yup , agreed.

The Exploited and NOFX are joint favourites, even though NOFX are quite different from most others on my list. I also love Discharge , GBH, The Rammones, The Descendents, Minor Threat and of course the sex pistols.

Deader than a dead thing that`s got a good reason to be dead.

Unfortunatly, Avril would commonly be described as "punk" which has caused me to be unhappy more than once that a band I haven't heard is being described as punk. This could mean they are real rough and noisy (the way I like it) or overly strucured like Taking Back Sunday or some shitty band like that.

Oh and my favorite bands right now are Bane, Shutdown, The Damned, Pipedown, Bloodlet, Strife, Death By Stereo. I've slowly moved away from the older punk and into the more 90's hardcore music. I, unfortnatly, find myself running from the fashions (aka teeny boppers love their Sex Pistol and Ramone shirts, and the occasioanly Clash shirt). Luckily, I hated the sex pistols and didn't like the ramones too much, but I did like the clash. I use to commonly listen to Nineteen, One Man Army, US Bombs, Total Chaos, stuff like that.

-edit-
Oh and have any of you heard of or have a cd of Uk Smog? I've only heard one song by them but it was bad ass.

I think the whole thing about 'punk' is that it can't be really be so acutely defined, therefore, there is no need to stand up to or defy the mainsteam acceptance of punk as it doesn't really hold any bearing.

I agree. I was going to go on to make a point of my own, but thought better of it.

Dead Kennedys
Bad Religion
Ramones
Social Distortion
Jawbreaker
Texas Is The Reason
Smoking Popes

The Sex Pistols
The Stooges
The Ramones
The Buzzcocks
X-Ray Spex
The Damned
Television
and (shame on me) Sham 69

Well i belive that underground punk is starting to emerge the only reason the mainstream hasnt heard of it is because they havent sold out.
Most kids now adays think punk is about bands like green day and simple plan.
Which annoys me

I disagree, the whole idea seemed to be "against the grain." It certainly wasn't to just conform to everything around you. Now I have said before to myself and friends that "punk" is actually, nothing now, you can argue it into anything, really. It seems to spark no ideas into me, and doesn't make me think of anything in particular, as someone saying "emo" would spark the unfortunate thought of little girly boys with long scarfs. In the extreme end, I care nothing for what has been branded punk and if somone goes so far as to brand a band "true punk (and it's not some lame ass magazine) I might take a look at the music, hoping it won't just be a bunch of a) politically fueled left-wing propaganda (ie: Anti-flag) or b) a bunch of high schoolers, or high schooler look-alikes singing about some girl that "left their heart on kitchen floor(!?);" and I'll hope that is the music I like: some fast, very energetic music that speaks from the heart (ie:madball [more "hardcore" than "punk" I know]), or is just funny (ie: Guttermouth) and usually the kind of music that would only appeal to small amount of "cult" followers (ie: Lightning Bolt). I'll end this now, but "punk" really has evolved into mental garbage, it'sa word with no meaning that you could recycle over and over in your head trying to get a meaning out of but would come up with nothing, as over the years the "defenition" of it (or what has been given to it) has hypocrisized (did I make up a word) itself time after time.

From this Wikipedia article;



Which leaves "key characteristics" open to interpretation. Don't get me wrong, I don't think most of what "the MTV" labels as punk these days is such - Avril Lavigne, Sum41, etc. Though Green Day and bands like them, what I usually refer to as pop-punk (this category does not include either of the others ), do have a somewhat "punky" sound to their music. They're what modern punks might term "sellouts"

The days of punk as it was in the days of the Clash and the Pistols are pretty much over, I think, it suffered a major blow post-1980ish with the advent of the synthesizer.

I take offence that you would say punk has evolved into garbage. "MTV-punk" stylings have been taken up by many "mainstream pop culture" types. But it also spawned/influenced/whatever some absolutely fantastic music - punk, really, was pretty much the progenitor of all of "alternative rock"

I'd also like to point out that Punk was massive at it's peak, there were lots of punks about. There just aren't that many people behind that kind of music any more. Not for the same reasons, anyway. And not with the same idealistic passion.
The point of punk music was that it was new, fresh, and completely different to any other music culture of the time, and rejected any music that had been around and popular for a while. This was reflected in punk culture, which, in the begining at least, found most of it's contempory society (ie Thatcher) lacking.
Thirty years on, I don't think "true punk" in that context can really exist any more. It was, in effect, programmed for self-destruction. What it did do, though, is inspire thousands of musicians to take up their instruments, and it helped to spawn a multitude of new genres of music.



Punk music lives on, in various incarnations, but "Punk" certainly does not.