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Spaced Out Forum > Archive > Rewind > Episode 2.2: Change
Chapman Baxter
I have a hard time sympathising with Daisy in this episode, particularly her whole 'I deserve free money' attitude. I'm tempted to say she gets exactly what she deserves in the dole office. Now, do you think we are supposed to sympathise with Daisy in this episode? And if so, do you actually sympathise with her? Am I being too harsh?
Dorf
I'm not sure your supposed to, Tim doesn't.

I know for a fact I didn't, but we can all still love Daisy even if she is a leetchy little scav. smile.gif
Ohio_is_for_lovers
QUOTE (Chapman Baxter @ Oct 23 2005, 05:22 PM)
I have a hard time sympathising with Daisy in this episode, particularly her whole 'I deserve free money' attitude.  I'm tempted to say she gets exactly what she deserves in the dole office.  Now, do you think we are supposed to sympathise with Daisy in this episode?  And if so, do you actually sympathise with her?  Am I being too harsh?
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Nah, i think the episode brings the feeling of as much as we love her we shouldnt sympathise with her in that respect, i mean the whole holiday thing and stuff, besides that without it we wouldnt see her coping with other jobs...
PrincessKate
I think this episode spelt the end for me and Daisy (As t'were). She was just this hugely irritating whiney cow from this point onwards - Although she did redeem herself at the last hurdle.
Ohio_is_for_lovers
QUOTE (PrincessKate @ Oct 23 2005, 08:18 PM)
I think this episode spelt the end for me and Daisy (As t'were). She was just this hugely irritating whiney cow from this point onwards - Although she did redeem herself at the last hurdle.
*


I do quite understand there, i mean when comparing with Tim it does make her seem a bit lazy. I mean Tim loses his job, goes to the dole office then plunders off to find another job, Daisy has to turn to working due to her inability to claim dole, not her unemployment.
beatoswald
I think we're supposed to understand Daisy's desire for free money and empathise with her in this respect but also see that it's socially infeasible and pretty much irresponsible of her. I think the writers/makers are aware that this aspect of Daisy nature is questionable and how much the viewer sympathises with her is dependent on their own personality/mood/temperament(something along those lines).
Jabba the Princess
I don't exactly sympathise with her, but I don't really look down upon her behaviour/attitude either. Strange, I would with any real-life person. I guess it's just cause I love her character, so I'm a lot more forgiving towards her. The way she says "there shouldn't be a problem; you've always given me money before" is almost... well... cute in its naiveity. And it's all kind of funny too. smile.gif

Also, I guess (to a lesser degree) I can relate to the whole "stuck-in-a-rut-and-have-gotten-used-to-it-so-have-become-complacent" life situation. It's hard to get out of, especially when one has zero motivation to achieve anything in life. But this is a bit of a wake-up call for Daisy, and although she doesn't like it, she does get off her arse so to speak.
Chris
Have any of you ever signed on? Honestly? I know some of you will claim to have...be honest. It can be a particularly soul destroying, spirit crushing, miserable, desperate and awful thing to have to do. It's easy to see how people become long term unemployed. The atmosphere and environment is not conducive to finding work at all.

Let me get this straight...many pf you consider this moment to be either the moment it ended for "You and Daisy
QUOTE
I think this episode spelt the end for me and Daisy
or that in general you're not supposed to sympathise with her because "Tim doesn't". Are you positioning Tim as the viewer, I don't see that. There are no editing, visual, televisual techniques to suggest he is us...unlike in the Office where that Tim is the voice/conscience of us - or at least supposed to be. How does Daisy's attitude differ from Tim's significantly? He loses his job that morning, I know he's prompted to sign on by Daisy but he's been out of work for an hour at most. I can't believe you're all so harsh. For me it's not even about the characters of Tim and Daisy [after all their characterisation[s] are outstandingly well drawn] it's the social issues and and your politics seeping through that troubles me! ohmy.gif huh.gif Your "protestant work ethic" is fucking scary to be honest. I know Spaced is not supposed to be incredibly accurate social commentary - although in many ways it is particularly accurate of a certain demographic in the late 90's - but this discussion has certainly brought out something of the Thatcherite in some of you! Blaming the actual unemployed for the unemployment. Nothing to do with social and economic conditions then? The job of right wing ideology is done...

Sorry for rant, it's just I make my living [when not signing on biggrin.gif ] talking about, critiquing, making and writing about Television...never before have I come accross comments discussing sympathetic viewing[s] or not of Daisy because she is signing on when discussing Spaced. I've just read this back, I wasn't going to post it, but then re-read some of your posts and I'm sorry, you've touched a nerve. sad.gif

C smile.gif
PrincessKate
The more I watch Spaced, the more I loathe Daisy and watch it for the more peripheral characters (Marsha, Mike, Brian, Sophie etc). My dislike of her has nothing to do with the fact she signs on, or finds it difficult to find work. Nor is it any relation to whatever it is that Tim feels towards her (Even if it is wholly justified.).

This episode just highlights her character traits that irritate me - as mentioned before the whining and lack of positive attitude towards work.

It's all about despising the character (And the fact that Stevenson is not as good an actor as Pegg, still that's a rant for another time smile.gif) not the politics of the storyline.
Chapman Baxter
It's not the fact that Daisy's signing on that annoys me. I've signed on myself. It's the fact that she doesn't even pretend to make an effort to support herself until she's forced to, when she is very resentful of the fact. Her attitude seems to be that she deserves to be supported by everyone else while contributing nothing in return. Not everyone signing on has this attitude - I'm sure very few do - but I don't think it's hardcore right-wing ideology to disagree with those who do have it.
pots
blimey o'reilley, chris, she's a sponger! yes, i've had to sign on before, and it was so depressing, soul crushing, spirit sapping etc that it made me go out and get a job. any job.

i think its more of a piss take of the attitude of so many mid twenties 'creatives' that think the world owes them a living because they are creative, cultured artistes who can't get dirt under their fingernails. hence all the temps in the kitchen are writers, poets etc. every second person in london is an artist, writer, designer, actor, dj, musician, etc etc etc, but they just happen to be making coffee in starbucks.

its not 'thatcherite' to feel that people should get off their arse and find work, its common sense - why should my taxes pay for someone to pretend to be a writer, etc. sure, there are market forces and economic issues that contribute to unemployment but the whole point about this episode is that daisy just doesn't want to work - and thats the whole problem with benefits, a safety net has turned into an easy source of money.
Dorf
QUOTE
but this discussion has certainly brought out something of the Thatcherite in some of you! Blaming the actual unemployed for the unemployment



Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this context, is it not Daisys fault entirely? (Especially if considering her attitude when she does work, and she managed to get numerous jobs, so I felt it safe to assume it was not the environment)

To answer the question if I have ever signed on, no i haven't because I am personally of the opinion that benefits should only be given to those in legitimate hardship and that are truley trying to find work (Therefore ever signing on would make me a hypocrite). I may fit perfectly into the Thatcherite label, but I don't agree with people 'Choosing' to be unemployed and expecting the government to pick up the tab (Don't missunderstand me, I'm not saying this is unemployed people in general, but taking Daisy as the example, I think we can agree she would have been perfectly happy to sit at home rather than bother finding anything). I know this may sound like I'm having a go at the lazy, but it's more that tax only goes so far and I believe it could be better spent.

I agree that Tim isn't the viewer, I only mentioned it because if it had been intended for us to feel sorry for Daisy, he would have probably been also.

I used Daisy as an example as this is what the thread was about, I'm sure none of us were attempting to assasinate her character and take her apart, this was just a singular incident which had been brought up and we gave our opinions.

Anyways, I may have ranted also and I certainly respect your standpoint, but respectfully disagree. smile.gif
Chris
Hey I am quite aware it is not the politics of the story line that annoys you... [the emergence of a political ideology has annoyed me though] but many have focussed on that particular trait in this episode as a rationalisation for not liking her. I know it might be the manifestation of other things BUT you cannot deny the overwhelming theme of this thread. Most people have mentioned her signing on, whining, wanting money for nothing et al. Chapman even called it "Daisy Scrounger" smile.gif

QUOTE
It's the fact that she doesn't even pretend to make an effort to support herself until she's forced to, when she is very resentful of the fact. Her attitude seems to be that she deserves to be supported by everyone else while contributing nothing in return. Not everyone signing on has this attitude - I'm sure very few do - but I don't think it's hardcore right-wing ideology to disagree with those who do have it.


Well, to be honest, the fact that you've even considered it an issue to be discussed, or that it's sort of annoyed you whilst watching it is reflective of a certain social attitude - forgive me if I am wrong, I have never met you, but only "know" you through your posts, but the fact remains, that this post is ideologically driven. I do think she deserves to be supported, that's the idea of the welfare state + to return to the comedy aspect smile.gif for a minute smile.gif I think she is very funny whilst whining. It is her tactic to get "some money"..."you've always given me money before" I genuinely think it's a very funny representation. But yes, the welfare state is there as the safety net - we all know that - what I think Simon and Jess do really really well is highlight the difficulties and differences of the 90's and early 21st century "writers" "Creatives" etc have compared to previous decades. In that, loads of people used to use the Benefit system as a "creatives credit account" or something similar. I do think they highlight that really well, and in quite a funny way.

Also...one more thing. I said the job of right wing ideology is done! I stand by that, it has become the "norm" and as such, entered the mainstream. Now it is barely considered harsh to blame the unemployed for their status. Everyone assumes it to be OK to blame the scrounger. That is annoying.

I am quite sure this is being taken far too seriously [particularly by me...it's my one true gift sad.gif sad.gif to get too serious in a comedy forum....well not only gift but I do it quite consistently.] Anyway, I'll shut up...I was just struck by the fact that it was even considered worthy of comment that she might be a scrounger. I just never even considered it...and I hate the word.

I hereby apologise to everyone if I look silly for taking it so seriously

C


[Edit] post post...just read the replies. See I knew it, I knew I was taking it too seriously. And Pots, Hi there, nice to "see" you. In your second paragraph you've highlighted what I meant! And to me, it is the residue of Thatcherism...it really is! smile.gif smile.gif
Ohio_is_for_lovers
I guess you do have a fair point Chris, i know i myself am too young to sign on, hence not doing it. but i guess in my own way im just one of those people who are scared of not having a job.Ive seen my dad get made redudant many times before now which i guess has caused my attitude in some way. My dad has always encouraged me to find work, which ive always been a bit lazy about, but since i got my first job i dont feel right if im not working. Also i feel in myself that i enjoy working and if not that i like to earn money for myself. In no means would i blame the unemployed for the lack of employment, i know finding jobs is a real bitch, it is a very depressing experience when you go to places and get turned down. Well im just babbling now, maybe i was pretty harsh, anyway im sorry. I guess its good though to see different opinions so you get the full side.
Chapman Baxter
QUOTE (Chris @ Oct 24 2005, 12:14 PM)
Chapman even called it "Daisy Scrounger"
*

Sponger. With a question mark. wink.gif

QUOTE (Chris @ Oct 24 2005, 12:14 PM)
but the fact remains, that this post is ideologically driven.
*

Sure, as are most opinions when you get down to it. But it's hardly exclusively right wing to expect people to contribute to society - 'From each according to his ability' and all that.

(By the way, I am pretty right wing on a lot of issues. And I work in the advertising industry. 'But don't let that fool you - I'm really an OK guy.')
Jessopjessopjessop
QUOTE (Chapman Baxter @ Oct 24 2005, 11:22 AM)
'But don't let that fool you - I'm really an OK guy.'
*


Signed Baxter, Chapman J
Chris
QUOTE
QUOTE(Chris @ Oct 24 2005, 12:14 PM)
Chapman even called it "Daisy Scrounger"
*


Sponger. With a question mark. wink.gif


Whooooops! That'll learn me! I'll be thrown out of my facutly if any of my colleagues see such clumsy/lazy reference checking! Consider me admonished


QUOTE
Sure, as are most opinions when you get down to it. But it's hardly exclusively right wing to expect people to contribute to society - 'From each according to his ability' and all that.


Yes that is true, all speech, thought, action is ideolgically driven in some respect. That's all the fault of language being our only means of communication I suppose. Nice to see a thatcherite [with a small t - if such a thing exists] quoting Marx. Weird smile.gif smile.gif

QUOTE
(By the way, I am pretty right wing on a lot of issues. And I work in the advertising industry. 'But don't let that fool you - I'm really an OK guy.')



I nearly said "some of my best friends are Tories" but that's not true, although two of my fairly good friends are. Anyway, you seem absolutely lovely to me....for a Right wi.....no sorry I'll stop smile.gif biggrin.gif

C
Dorf
Damn straight you lefty hippy. wink.gif wink.gif
widowspider
I don't get irritated with Daisy at all - in fact, I think it's a great portrayal of our generation post-university. We all got up to our eyeballs in student debt in the name of three years drinking ourselves stupid ('..for which you received a third'), yet we always know that come the beginning of the semester, a large sum of money will deposit itself into our bank accounts. Said bank accounts also let us get overdrawn by thousands of pounds for free, and will pretty much always increase our credit limit.
Post-university, we all of a sudden need to pay the rent, bills and our beer habits without that magical injection of cash, and now the bank sends us threatening letters about how our interest-free overdraft is going to be closed soon and we'll owe them a shitload in interest. We don't really know what we're doing; we haven't figured out what we want to do and the part-time bar job really doesn't pay enough. We are Daisy.
It's easy to pigeonhole her as a sponger or a lazy get (which, to be honest, she is) but she is also a fictional character representing the same attributes in ourselves, to a greater or lesser extent. I've never signed on but I came really close just after graduating because I genuinely couldn't find a job. I'm stuck in drifterville right now because I'm not allowed to work (still) so I survive on odd cash-paid jobs but a lot of the time, I sit in the apartment drinking 12 cups of tea and not doing much. I can see how laziness does breed laziness. She's a good person who's ended up stuck, and in this episode she finally has to admit that and do some tedious jobs to make ends meet. I've always found the 'we are good with people/fuck you' bits hilarious. laugh.gif
/babble
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