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sarkybarker
QUOTE (Ade @ Apr 10 2007, 09:57 PM)
Cheers chap.
There there.

Just as you'd gotten the hang of spoiler tags. Awwww.
biggrin.gif
*


here here!

Anyone think Gene should have his own spin-off show?
stinketta
I did like the rather ambiguous ending.

I think that he probably does die when the test girl 'switches off', but I'm not actually that fussed by it. He embraced his 1973 life and that's what matters to me.
Raven
Personally I like the symmetry of it all.

If you think back, the very first episode ended with Annie talking Sam out of jumping to get back to the present - now the series has ended with Sam jumping in the present to get back to Annie to keep the promise he had made to her, it's just beautifully done - top stuff!
tigerlily
QUOTE (sarkybarker @ Apr 10 2007, 10:59 PM)
Anyone think Gene should have his own spin-off show?
*


The BBC. I think there's something called Ashes to Ashes in the works isn't there?
Raven
QUOTE (sarkybarker @ Apr 10 2007, 10:59 PM)
Anyone think Gene should have his own spin-off show?


I think that's in the pipe-line (Ashes to Ashes or something, set in the eighties . . .).
Raven
QUOTE (tigerlily @ Apr 10 2007, 11:04 PM)
The BBC.  I think there's something called Ashes to Ashes in the works isn't there?
*


Oooo - spooky! biggrin.gif
Ade
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 10 2007, 11:04 PM)
Personally I like the symmetry of it all. 

If you think back, the very first episode ended with Annie talking Sam out of jumping to get back to the present - now the series has ended with Sam jumping in the present to get back to Annie to keep the promise he had made to her, it's just beautifully done - top stuff!
*

You know, I'd forgotten all about that. It's a really nice touch. Clearly the reason he had that big soppy grin on his face as he took the run up. Lovely.
sarkybarker
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 10 2007, 10:05 PM)
I think that's in the pipe-line (Ashes to Ashes or something, set in the eighties . . .).
*


Set in the eighties? Oh. He'd probably have lost his good looks and charm by then.
Sostie
You could tell his leap was spontaneous...he didn't bring a CHANGE OF BLOODY CLOTHES WITH HIM!!!


I liked the episode when he leapt into the body of a pregnant woman...shit, did it again.
PrincessKate
QUOTE (Sostie @ Apr 10 2007, 10:56 PM)
They copped out...he should have snogged Gene.
A little pun in there for Ade.
*

Now boykissing is definitely what was missing...
Kidding.

Personally I saw it as a continuation of the same coma - he never woke up, just imagined it and is happy with it that way.
However STCG's appearance at the end made me think the writers were telling us that 'it's just a tv show'.
Jimmay
In my opinion, we just saw the end of Sam's life and I think the whole comment on the radio about losing him, combined with the strange camera angles, turning off of the screen and the fact that he'd just lept off a building confirms that. Although the ambiguity is fantastic as has been said before, we shall never really know.

I thought it was fantastic but was a really bleak prospect on life in all honesty.

Kind of reminded me of American Beauty though for some reason?
Ade
QUOTE (Jimmay @ Apr 10 2007, 11:16 PM)
Kind of reminded me of American Beauty though for some reason?
*

I have no idea what you're talking about I'm sure.

But I will one day.
Jimmay
QUOTE (Ade @ Apr 10 2007, 10:22 PM)
I have no idea what you're talking about I'm sure.

But I will one day.
*


OOOOOOOOOOO

*touches nose with one hand and points at Ade with the other while cheekily grinning*

(that works in my head but I'm not sure if I put it across particularly well?)
sarkybarker
QUOTE (Jimmay @ Apr 10 2007, 10:27 PM)
OOOOOOOOOOO

*touches nose with one hand and points at Ade with the other while cheekily grinning*

(that works in my head but I'm not sure if I put it across particularly well?)
*


I'm with you on this one Ade! laugh.gif
Raven
You know, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that was an exceptionally clever piece of television - and we don't get nearly enough of them . . .
maian
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 10 2007, 11:42 PM)
You know, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that was an exceptionally clever piece of television - and we don't get nearly enough of them . . .
*


The fact that we've discussed the ending more than we discussed the rest of the show (proportionally that is, 3 pages in 2 hours compared to 11 pages in a year) would attest to the brilliance of that ending. I was initially a bit sceptical but it is such a well constructed ending and much more open to interpretation than I first thought.
Atara
What about the if you can't feel it isn't real thing, does that mean modern world wasn't real, since he couldn't feel. Or have you covered this

I missed too much of this show to really know to be honest.
Raven
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 10 2007, 11:44 PM)
The fact that we've discussed the ending more than we discussed the rest of the show (proportionally that is, 3 pages in 2 hours compared to 11 pages in a year) would attest to the brilliance of that ending. I was initially a bit sceptical but it is such a well constructed ending and much more open to interpretation than I first thought.
*


I'd have to say that I initially thought "Is that it?", but then I started to think about what I'd seen over the last hour, and coupled with what people have posted here - and on some other sites - I'd have to say the ole grey matter is now working overtime.

It was just so very clever - it not only gave more than one interpretation for the ending, it tied in beautifully with the beginning of the story.

The second series may not have hit the same mark - in places - that the first did, but I'd have to say that the conclusion was a work of genius.
maian
QUOTE (Atara @ Apr 10 2007, 11:49 PM)
What about the if you can't feel it isn't real thing, does that mean modern world wasn't real, since he couldn't feel. Or have you covered this

I missed too much of this show to really know to be honest.
*


Well, it could mean that it wasn't real because he couldn't feel anything, or it could mean that he was ignoring the pain in order to justify his belief that the 'real' world wasn't actually real, thus making it okay in Sam's mind for him to jump off the roof because it would return him to 1973. It also could have been a reflection of his state of mind and the generally sense of numbness he felt upon returning to the 2007.
Ade
QUOTE (Jimmay @ Apr 10 2007, 11:27 PM)
OOOOOOOOOOO

*touches nose with one hand and points at Ade with the other while cheekily grinning*

(that works in my head but I'm not sure if I put it across particularly well?)
*

You forgot the wink for that finishing touch. wink.gif


QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 10 2007, 11:42 PM)
You know, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that was an exceptionally clever piece of television - and we don't get nearly enough of them . . .
*
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 10 2007, 11:44 PM)
The fact that we've discussed the ending more than we discussed the rest of the show (proportionally that is, 3 pages in 2 hours compared to 11 pages in a year) would attest to the brilliance of that ending. I was initially a bit sceptical but it is such a well constructed ending and much more open to interpretation than I first thought.
*

Yes indeed.
sarkybarker
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 10 2007, 10:59 PM)
I'd have to say that I initially thought "Is that it?", but then I started to think about what I'd seen over the last hour, and coupled with what people have posted here - and on some other sites - I'd have to say the ole grey matter is now working overtime.

It was just so very clever - it not only gave more than one interpretation for the ending, it tied in beautifully with the beginning of the story.

The second series may not have hit the same mark - in places - that the first did, but I'd have to say that the conclusion was a work of genius.
*


Yep, me too. As it was going on i was thinking "this can't be it", but that was the clever thing. It was subtle and thought provoking at a time when they could've gone for the big over the top conclusive ending.
maian
My initial thoughts about it were that the ending wasn't ambiguous enough. That it was a half-hearted attempt to be vaguely ambiguous by throwing in little comments like ''I can't feel'' etc, but I now realise that it was those little bits that created just enough doubt to make it worth looking at time and again. And, with gentle prodding from this place, all sorts of possibilities appear. I read a few reviews that said it was a disappointing ending, but I personally think it's far cleverer than I and otehrs gave it credit for.
Raven
QUOTE (sarkybarker @ Apr 11 2007, 12:04 AM)
Yep, me too. As it was going on i was thinking "this can't be it", but that was the clever thing. It was subtle and thought provoking at a time when they could've gone for the big over the top conclusive ending.
*


Absolutely!

The best stories DON'T explain everything, they leave it to you to find your own meaning in them.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks a definitive answer to the series would have been the worst thing they could have done - as I said before, this will be talked about for years, which to my mind is what as a series Life on Mars deserves!
sarkybarker
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 10 2007, 11:10 PM)
Absolutely!

The best stories DON'T explain everything, they leave it to you to find your own meaning in them.

I'm now firmly in the camp that thinks a definitive answer to the series would have been the worst thing they could have done - as I said before, this will be talked about for years, which to my mind is what as a series Life on Mars deserves!
*


True. What would you prefer? Inspector Morse finding the murderer on 58 minutes or a show that will leave you excited and full of opinions long after the credits have rolled?
Raven
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 11 2007, 12:07 AM)
I read a few reviews that said it was a disappointing ending, but I personally think it's far cleverer than I and otehrs gave it credit for.


There are a lot of people out there tonight who are over-thinking this.

I've just read a comment from someone who thought that because there is a link between BBC Wales and Julia Gardner, that could mean that Life on Mars was, in fact, connected to Doctor Who in some way . . . rolleyes.gif

I'll be disappointed if this does get duff reviews tomorrow though, it was an intelligent piece of television and I think it deserves recognition for being that.
Raven
The Return of Gene Hunt, good or bad, only time will tell . . .
PrincessKate
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 11 2007, 01:29 AM)
The Return of Gene Hunt, good or bad, only time will tell . . .
*

Oh that sounds... terrible.
That's a truly awful premise, I hope fervently its just idle speculation.

Then again, apparently Ray and Chris will be making the move too so I'll be watching regardless.
maian
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 11 2007, 01:29 AM)
The Return of Gene Hunt, good or bad, only time will tell . . .
*


It could easily go either way, but I think they'll really struggle shoehorning in the premise again. Though it would be interesting to see how Gene and the sidekick would get on.
stinketta
I'd much rather they followed it up with a conventional cop show, or at least Sci Fi with a different twist.
melzilla
Apparently the guys wrote that final episode in a hotel a couple of blocks from where I used to live....weird eh?
sarkybarker
QUOTE (Raven @ Apr 11 2007, 12:29 AM)
The Return of Gene Hunt, good or bad, only time will tell . . .
*


A series with Gene Hunt = GOOD

Another cop coming back in time after an accident - BAD.

I agree with Stinketta. Forget the sci-fi element and make it a straight sort of 80's spoof if anything because it could end up devaluing Life On Mars if they stick to the same formula.
Starscream`s Ghost
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 11 2007, 01:38 AM)
Though it would be interesting to see how Gene and the sidekick would get on.
*


I'm guessing badly.

If they get the casting right, this could work.
Stella MM
QUOTE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6542633.stm)
Viewers of Tuesday's finale finally saw the answer to his continual question: "Am I mad, in a coma or back in time?"

No we didn't!

I loved that ending. I haven't felt such tension watching a tv show for a good few years - probably not since the last episode of Buffy, series 5. I forgot how good John Simm is. He got a chance to show his skills again after Philip Glenister's masterful theft of the limelight.
Jubei
I like the idea that the test card girl turning off TV was them 'losing' Sam and that's it for him. I hadn't though of that at all but actually it really fits with the idea that the present day is real. He wouldn't survive the fall from the building, at least not for long. However, this again is quite depressing. Essentially, he was a man in a coma who's dreams were so vivid that he couldn't handle reality and so committed suicide shortly after waking up.

I think another series would be a BIG mistake. Think about it, if there is a second series, it means that every theory we've come up with so far has been a million miles away from the truth. They couldn't be Sams coma dreams if they turn up in the 80's with no Sam. And yet, it can't be that Sam has amnesia either, or it would be a hell of a coincidence if a second person had exactly the same kind of bizarre delsuion.
Chapman Baxter
QUOTE (Jubei @ Apr 11 2007, 09:52 AM)
Essentially, he was a man in a coma who's dreams were so vivid that he couldn't handle reality and so committed suicide shortly after waking up.
*


That's how I see it. A thoroughly depressing ending that, to me, renders the whole thing a bit pointless. Nothing that happened in either series actually mattered - it was all in Sam's head. Annie doesn't exist, and Sam prefers a fantasy woman he's made up to any woman he might meet in the real world. Bleurgh.
Starscream`s Ghost
See, I didn't find the fact that Sam could be dead depressing in the slightest. If he was happier in his dream world, then he 'died' happy, and the romantic in me quite likes that idea.

As for someone having the same delusion, well, people imagine a similar kind of alien in abduction fantasies, it's not completely outside the realms of possibility, and if this woman is supposed to be a psychological profiler, then maybe she studied Sam's case at some point, and read about the "Hunt Syndrome"?
maian
QUOTE (Jubei @ Apr 11 2007, 09:52 AM)
I like the idea that the test card girl turning off TV was them 'losing' Sam and that's it for him. I hadn't though of that at all but actually it really fits with the idea that the present day is real. He wouldn't survive the fall from the building, at least not for long. However, this again is quite depressing. Essentially, he was a man in a coma who's dreams were so vivid that he couldn't handle reality and so committed suicide shortly after waking up.

I think another series would be a BIG mistake. Think about it, if there is a second series, it means that every theory we've come up with so far has been a million miles away from the truth. They couldn't be Sams coma dreams if they turn up in the 80's with no Sam. And yet, it can't be that Sam has amnesia either, or it would be a hell of a coincidence if a second person had exactly the same kind of bizarre delsuion.
*


The only way I can see it working, assuming that Sam and the new cop ended up in different time zones for the same reason, would be that both lapsed into comas and created a life for themselves at a time that they remember fondly, childhood, and Gene just happens to be there. Or, 1973 could have been some sort of limbo for Sam before going to the afterlife, or it may have been the afterlife itself and he was just on the edge of it until the final episode. If this is true, then perhaps Gene and the rest of A Unit were some sort of spirits or angels who kept an eye on Sam. So it could be possible for both characters to end up in 1973 and the 80s respectively since both time periods would be their version of the afterlife, a nostalgic fantasy in which Gene Hunt could appear because he's sort of a heavenly escort.

Though that's probably all bollocks and it's not worth trying to reconcile both series. And I'd just like to point out that I don't believe this outlandish theory, though it was great fun to make up.

Edit: I don't find the ''he killed himself in order to be happy'' ending depressing. It's more or less the same as the ending of Brazil (except dying instead of going mad), he effectively wins and 'lives' happily ever after.

That's assuming that it was 1973 that was the fantasy.
Sostie
I was listening to Bowie's Hunky Dory this morning and of course Life On Mars. At the end of the track you can just hear a telephone ring in the background...the same ring as the one in the show....spooky!

On the remastered version you can faintly hear Bowie shout "oi, Ronson you nonce". Double spooky.
Chapman Baxter
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 11 2007, 10:04 AM)
I don't find the ''he killed himself in order to be happy'' ending depressing. It's more or less the same as the ending of Brazil (except dying instead of going mad), he effectively wins and 'lives' happily ever after.
*


It's a matter of taste, I suppose. At least the ending to Brazil didn't undermine the reality of the whole film - instead, to me it underlined the tragic nature of Sam (Lowry)'s fate. It don't see it as a victory at all. And I don't think Sam (Tyler) 'killed himself in order to be happy'; my interpretation is that he killed himself, enjoyed a brief fantasy, then switched off permanently.
Jimmay
QUOTE (Starscream`s Ghost @ Apr 11 2007, 09:02 AM)
if this woman is supposed to be a psychological profiler, then maybe she studied Sam's case at some point, and read about the "Hunt Syndrome"?
*



Hang on a cotton picking second! Sam tape recorded what happened to him and said he was sending it to a police woman who was doing psychological profiles of police officers who have traumatic experiences. Something tells me this may be the first mention of our new 80's policewoman officer.

Also, talking to people at work, the general consensus is that as Sam couldn't feel in the modern day, that that was the dream world so he threw himself off the building to wake himself up back to where he belongs, in '73.

I think it just depends whether you decide you want a happy or a sad ending really. If you want to think he has died then it lets you think that. Otherwise, he is happy and alive and meant to be in 1973 with Annie. Ambiguity reigns supreme.
Starscream`s Ghost
QUOTE (Jimmay @ Apr 11 2007, 10:22 AM)
Hang on a cotton picking second! Sam tape recorded what happened to him and said he was sending it to a police woman who was doing psychological profiles of police officers who have traumatic experiences. Something tells me this may be the first mention of our new 80's policewoman officer.
*


Ah ha! See, I hadn't even thought of that.
Jubei
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 11 2007, 10:04 AM)
If this is true, then perhaps Gene and the rest of A Unit were some sort of spirits or angels who kept an eye on Sam.
*

I almost posted that exact same theory, then thought it was just getting too silly.

QUOTE (Jimmay)
Hang on a cotton picking second! Sam tape recorded what happened to him and said he was sending it to a police woman who was doing psychological profiles of police officers who have traumatic experiences. Something tells me this may be the first mention of our new 80's policewoman officer.

Good spot, I think you may just have hit the nail on the head there. That's just enough of a link to make Gene Hunt feasible in another persons dream, and it was an odd thing for Sam to say/do unless you take it in the context of setting up another story arc. Brilliant!
sarkybarker
QUOTE (Chapman Baxter @ Apr 11 2007, 09:01 AM)
That's how I see it. A thoroughly depressing ending that, to me, renders the whole thing a bit pointless. Nothing that happened in either series actually mattered - it was all in Sam's head. Annie doesn't exist, and Sam prefers a fantasy woman he's made up to any woman he might meet in the real world. Bleurgh.
*


Oh bugger. yet another possiblility and a feasable one. I prefer to believe his fantasy of 1973 lives on

...but if the test card kid switched his life support off then perhaps it doesn't.... sad.gif
maian
QUOTE (Jimmay @ Apr 11 2007, 10:22 AM)
Also, talking to people at work, the general consensus is that as Sam couldn't feel in the modern day, that that was the dream world so he threw himself off the building to wake himself up back to where he belongs, in '73.
*


See, I don't think that's enough evidence to support the ''it really is 1973'' theory. He could just be referring to the general ennui that had settled over his mind after waking up, and it's fairly common for someone to cause a minor injury to themselves and not notice it if their mind is elsewhere.

If we go down a more Total Recall-esque route, it could just be that Sam's subconscious ignored the pain and he then saw this as proof that 1973 was real and that he could get back by jumping off the roof.
Wife Of Rolex
Most of what I've thought and theoried about the final episode has already been discussed so I won't repeat, other to add that it indeed was a truly brilliant ending. These things are usually anti-climatic, but I spent a good portion of the episode just sat with my mouth open. John Simm was just superb and the writing was astounding.

My immediate thoughts when it finished was that it was Sam's idea of heaven and his leaping off the roof was him going to the light. But the creation of his heaven was a result of his memories and so living gave him a home for his soul. To have heaven in death you must live. Or is that a touch too deep?


QUOTE (Chapman Baxter @ Apr 11 2007, 10:01 AM)
That's how I see it. A thoroughly depressing ending that, to me, renders the whole thing a bit pointless. Nothing that happened in either series actually mattered - it was all in Sam's head. Annie doesn't exist, and Sam prefers a fantasy woman he's made up to any woman he might meet in the real world. Bleurgh.
*


But Annie did exist. She was the woman Sam saw his father brutally attack/kill in the woods when he was a 4 year old in 1973. A memory of her would've existed in his mind. By having her in his subconscious she's alive and well and he falls in love with her. By going back he allows her to live...kind of. Now there's a love story.


QUOTE (Sostie @ Apr 11 2007, 10:11 AM)
I was listening to Bowie's Hunky Dory this morning and of course Life On Mars.  At the end of the track you can just hear a telephone ring in the background...the same ring as the one in the show....spooky!

On the remastered version you can faintly hear Bowie shout "oi, Ronson you nonce".  Double spooky.
*


It's funny but as the credits rolled I just remembered about the telephone ringing in the studio at the end of the track and thought, 'Ahhh, the telephone. Of course!' Shame they didn't play that bit right at the end. It would've tied in nicely.


QUOTE (Jimmay @ Apr 11 2007, 10:22 AM)
Hang on a cotton picking second! Sam tape recorded what happened to him and said he was sending it to a police woman who was doing psychological profiles of police officers who have traumatic experiences. Something tells me this may be the first mention of our new 80's policewoman officer.


Give the boy a trophy. That is an excellent spot.

Going back to the subconscious thing, maybe this DCI Alex Drake falls asleep while listening to Sam's tape and while unable to imagine the 1970s - because she's too young - she instead imagines the 1980s. Though, whether she gets there through an accident or other means we'll just have to wait and see. After being initially iffy about the idea of Ashes To Ashes I'm now very interested to see it.


Wife Of Rolex
Spider Dijon
He can't hack living in 21st centuary Manchester so he throws himself off a building...does anyone else here think he's a bit of a fruit loop?
maian
QUOTE (Spider Dijon @ Apr 11 2007, 02:35 PM)
He can't hack living in 21st centuary Manchester so he throws himself off a building...does anyone else here think he's a bit of a fruit loop?
*


It's not that he can't hack it, just that he was happier in the 1970s. Though 21st century Manchester may have been the delusion and the 1970s real, not the other way around.
Spider Dijon
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 11 2007, 01:37 PM)
It's not that he can't hack it, just that he was happier in the 1970s. Though 21st century Manchester may have been the delusion and the 1970s real, not the other way around.
*

Ah maybe you're right, personally though If it were me and I wanted to put myself into a comba and I wouldn't make a habit of jumping off buildings to do it. Reality or not, I'd start on the ground.
Wife Of Rolex
QUOTE (maian @ Apr 11 2007, 02:37 PM)
It's not that he can't hack it, just that he was happier in the 1970s. Though 21st century Manchester may have been the delusion and the 1970s real, not the other way around.
*


That doesn't really explain the names he came up with for him, Annie and Gene in the swingers episode. Tony & Cherie Blair and Gordon Brown. If he was a 36 year old man living in 1973 he wouldn't know those names.


Wife Of Rolex
maian
QUOTE (Wife Of Rolex @ Apr 11 2007, 03:11 PM)
That doesn't really explain the names he came up with for him, Annie and Gene in the swingers episode. Tony & Cherie Blair and Gordon Brown. If he was a 36 year old man living in 1973 he wouldn't know those names.
Wife Of Rolex
*

Though he could have made it all up and it just happens to mirror our reality. Delusions tend to be very intricate and vivid in some cases, so it could happen. Besides which, they're all fairly common names.
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