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Raven
I read a comment, on another web site last night, that the false regeneration was akin to the old black and white serials where the car would go over the cliff at the end of one episode, only for them to show the hero jump from the car before it does so at the start of the next, and I'd have to say I agree with that.

I knew as soon as the opening credits rolled, without Tennant morphing into someone else, that it wasn't going to happen, and from that point on we were rigidly back into Davis "run of the mill" mode again.

What ever his merits are as a writer, Davis cannot write good science fiction. Leaving aside all the reality bomb nonsense, something I couldn't work out is why were the Daleks trying to destroy the universe in the first place. They've always been about conquest and suppressing the lesser races, if they destroy all the universes, what are they going to do with themselves?!

The resolution to the Rose plot line was poor, to the point that it makes you wonder why they got her back in the first place. So she gets Doctor Two, who was sent to his room by the real Doctor and who has a helping of gobby Donna to boot. I'm sure they'll live happily ever after, and all that . . .

Also, "There's never been a Human-Timelord metecomplex (was that the right word?) before" has to rank as one of the worst lines of dialogue ever written.

I don't have a problem with everyone living at the end of each series, companion deaths in the original series were few and far between, but I do have a problem with them banging on about someone dying - for an entire series - only for there not to be a corpse on the floor at the end of it. They did it once with Rose in series two, and now they've done it again with Donna, and whilst it was a good and tragic ending for her character, I can't help but feel somewhat cheated that we didn't get a fatality (again).

It wasn't all bad, Davros was a real highlight - Julian Bleach was excellent - and it's a shame there were so many other people in the episode that he didn't get more screen time. I'll also miss Bernard Cribbins who I think has been the real surprise of this series, possibly more so than Catherine Tate.

Overall though, I can't say it was great. I think the best praise I can give it is that it was better than The Last of the Timelords.
Starscream`s Ghost
Bleach was excellent, if they happen to bring Davros back at some point, I hope he gets the gig.
logger
QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 6 2008, 03:22 PM)
I read a comment, on another web site last night, that the false regeneration was akin to the old black and white serials where the car would go over the cliff at the end of one episode, only for them to show the hero jump from the car before it does so at the start of the next, and I'd have to say I agree with that.
*

I wish now that at the start of the episode they didn't even mention the regeneration, and just treated it as if it had never happened. Although the way they handled it really made me do a lol.

QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 6 2008, 03:22 PM)
What ever his merits are as a writer, Davis cannot write good science fiction.
*

Davis is just plain poor. Whatever I've seen by him has stunk of either laziness of outright incompetence.

QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 6 2008, 03:22 PM)
I'll also miss Bernard Cribbins who I think has been the real surprise of this series, possibly more so than Catherine Tate.
*

Yeah, Cribbins was good in the episodes I saw and they should find a way of bringing him back.
sapphirejedi
Rose did seem a bit tacked on. The only reason I can see for bringing her back was to give her a happy ending with "Doc Delicious" and shut up all the Rose-luvers so they never have to bring her back again. Oh, and so they had an excuse to bring Mickey (who in the beginning annoyed me, but now I just love him!) back into the fold. But that's just my opinion.....
Drifter
Personally I thought it was a very weak episode even for RTD.

What was the point of bringing back Mickey and Jackie? None.

You really didnt need to have Sarah Jane either.

Donna shouldve died at the end because the ending for me was shit, it seems the good old Doctor cant seem to keep ahold of a companion for longer than a series worth.

You didnt need to have Gwen and Ianto in there either other than to introduce Jack into the episode two parter.

It wouldve been better with just Rose, Donna, Jack and the Doc as even Martha's role was a waste of time with her Osterhagen key. Although I think Rose was criminally under-used in this episode until the end and she has her 'moment' with the Doctor.

I sit here and think of all the possibilities should Moffat had a hand in the finale, bitterly disappointed with the conclusion even after knowing what was to come previously and glad that RTD stepped down when he did.
KevinandNick
Donna isn't the first companion to have all memories of being with The Doctor wiped...

Kev W
GundamGuy_UK
Others have pretty much voiced my opinion already, so I won't go into details on it. It was a "I liked it a lot, but..." episode.

Am I the only one who, when the Christmas episode preview started, secretly hoped that they'd somehow be Steampunk Cybermen? It'd be awesome.
gulfcoast_highwayman
They should have had a scene like the one in The Simpsons after they wrote Poochy out of 'Itchy & Scratchy', where Krusty presents a signed affidavit promising he'll never return.

Only then will I feel safe from the Tate.
GundamGuy_UK
QUOTE (gulfcoast_highwayman @ Jul 6 2008, 10:16 PM)
They should have had a scene like the one in The Simpsons after they wrote Poochy out of 'Itchy & Scratchy', where Krusty presents a signed affidavit promising he'll never return.

Only then will I feel safe from the Tate.
*


"Poochy died on the way back to his home planet"
Raven
QUOTE (Starscream`s Ghost @ Jul 6 2008, 05:29 PM)
Bleach was excellent, if they happen to bring Davros back at some point, I hope he gets the gig.


I'd like to see a Davros story without the Daleks.

QUOTE (Drifter @ Jul 6 2008, 08:11 PM)
What was the point of bringing back Mickey and Jackie?


And if they were there, why wasn't Pete?

QUOTE
You really didnt need to have Sarah Jane either.

It wouldve been better with just Rose, Donna, Jack and the Doc as even Martha's role was a waste of time with her Osterhagen key.


But what did Jack bring to it that any other the others didn't? It was simply an excuse for Davis to bring all of his creations together in the one show, and nothing more - they all got their turn, which was nice, but because of that the story was just too cluttered (in the same way the Batman films suffered when they had too many villians).
Starscream`s Ghost
QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 6 2008, 10:27 PM)
I'd like to see a Davros story without the Daleks.
*


Like the Molloy audios?
Sostie
This is the way the series ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper

It was a bit of a rubbish conclusion, yet still fairly entertaining.

The whole Bad Wolf Bay re-visited kind of tainted the first farewell. Should have been less Rose this series. What's the betting someone at Doctor Who Central is already pondering the idea of a future Doctor meeting up with Tannant Mk 2?

It's a shame the rather sad farewell to possibly one of my favourite assistants ever was in an episode that is more likely to be remembered for its poor quality.
mousespider
It surely wasn't the worst thing RTD has ever done, but it certainly wasn't great.

One of the things that sticks out in my mind as painfully awful was all the characters flying the Tardis. So fucking corny it made me want to vomit out my organs.

I didn't mind the Rose/clone doctor ending because it hopefully means we will never need to her from or about her ever again.

And, it's not a complaint but just a bummer that, the only character that didn't get a happy ending, was the one I've grown to like the most out of all the New Who companions. Although, at least it was done well, particularly because of the performances of David Tennant, Catherine Tate, and Bernard Cribbins.
Wife Of Rolex
QUOTE (Withnail @ Jul 6 2008, 09:29 AM)
Lazy plotting with ideas nicked from STTNG and Farscape.
*


I was thinking exactly the same, though Farscape had the more shocking outcome.

It's not the first time Farscape has sprung to mind when watching new Who. The Sycorax were very Scarran.
Drifter
QUOTE (Wife Of Rolex @ Jul 7 2008, 03:22 AM)
I was thinking exactly the same, though Farscape had the more shocking outcome.

It's not the first time Farscape has sprung to mind when watching new Who. The Sycorax were very Scarran.
*


I thought that too, although Farscape did it a whole lot better.
Raven
What Farscape/TNG bits did people think were nicked for Doctor Who then? I'm struggling to think of anything similar that they did . . .
Wife Of Rolex
Some people are just fucking stupid


Dozy bastards.

rolleyes.gif
mousespider
QUOTE (Wife Of Rolex @ Jul 7 2008, 02:05 PM)


I'm not defending any of these people, because a large portion of them are most likely stupid, but there has been precedent for numbers like that actually being "real." For instance Scrubs featured the number 1-800-Call-Turk in an episode, and it apparently became a number you could call to get info on the show, and some of the cast actually answered at certain times. I think there was also something like that with Heroes. But, once again, most of these people are probably idiots.
Zoe
I was going to call it. I thought they might have gone to the effort of getting David to record what sounded like an answerphone message; but then I couldn't be bothered.

It would have been a nice touch if they had. They flashed it enough times as if to imply they were encouraging the viewer (a number of which would be young children) to call it.
Withnail
One thing I did notice on another site has made a rather good point - not sure if it was mentioned earlier. How is it that, merely 4 years after the daleks took over the entire earth, a secret American museum entirely devoted to examining extra-terrestrial artifacts doesn't know what a Dalek is...?
NiteFall
Because those events hadn't happened in that time line. The Doctor at that point hadn't encountered the Cult of Skaro setting up the chain of events leading up to the Daleks taking over the Earth. Basically you have to accept that while events on Earth occur in a sequential manner, the non-sequential nature of The Doctor's existance means that cause can precede effect and that some things that he sets into motion need not happen for anyone outside of himself and any other time travellers involved in the incident. Or to put it another way- it's a big ball of wibbley-wobblery timey wimeyness.
GundamGuy_UK
Time travel is impossible.

If you ever went back in time, you could never return to the future (ie former present), because the act of you traveling back would mean you'd end up in a world with you in it in that time - a world different to the one you left intially. The whole idea of "it's already happened so you can't damage the future" is nonsense, because you can never return to the future because it's not happened yet. You can go to the past, but once there you're stuck and must follow the same rate of time as the rest of the universe (provided the technology exists to send you back).

This is the physical outcome of what would actually happen. You can't kill your parents and then not be born, because the 2008 you leave is not the 2008 you'd eventually come to see (if you lived long enough).

I did have a paper that explained it much better, but sadly I don't have it anymore so you'll have to take my crude and tired synopsis. But essentially, the future hasn't happened yet so you can't go there. And when you go to the past, the present becomes the future and therefor hasn't happened yet so you can't go there. In whatever time you're in, the present is now, the past is before, and the future doesn't exist. Even if you were in "the future" previously.

It's a good job too - it's confusing enough thinking about it, but imagine how confusing it'd be if you could actually move freely in all 4 dimensions. There'd be no concept of past, present, and future, and no such thing as history. The Romans coming here would be no more impossible than you walking to the post office. Except now you'd need to remember not just where the post office is, but when.

Sorry to ruin the show for you all. Oh, and the aliens are special effects and the characters are actually actors playing roles.
logger
What about Back to the Future? They went back in time. And forward, I saw it. Explain that, Mr Scientist.

Next you'll be saying God didn't create the Earth for the Sun to revolve round.
Chapman Baxter
And what about when Superman flew round the Earth really fast and made it spin backwards so time went into reverse and Lois didn't die in the earthquake?

Explain THAT away, Mr Smartypants.
Raven
QUOTE (GundamGuy_UK @ Jul 8 2008, 11:09 PM)
It's a good job too - it's confusing enough thinking about it, but imagine how confusing it'd be if you could actually move freely in all 4 dimensions.


Psh, you're sooooo out of date - we're up to at least ten or eleven dimensions now mate!

QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 7 2008, 01:45 PM)
What Farscape/TNG bits did people think were nicked for Doctor Who then?  I'm struggling to think of anything similar that they did . . .


Anyone?! huh.gif
Bloomeeney
Thats all very interesting but what the hell was going on with Billie Piper's teeth??? I'm sure she never had that speech impediment before.



(She is still very hot though! tongue.gif )
Zoe
It was her gag reflex constantly going at the thought of that vaguely incestual, yucky snog.

Bleurgh.
Svein
Well, I had to watch it on YouTube in 7 parts (Couldn't get BBC iPlayer to connect), so will watch it tonight.

My reaction, from what I saw, was...

1) Overall, I enjoyed it.
2) Regeneration was a cop-out.
3) Tate's "death" was a massive cop-out.
4) Matha would never have been party to bomb that destroyed earth.
5) Whilst the multiple strands were interesting, Jackie/Mickey (apart from saving Sarah-Jane) were pointless.
6) Towing the Earth stretched beyond all feasabilities EVER!
7) The kiss was... I dunno... just not "whovian".

These were, in my mind, minor points, but points for improvement, none the less.
Sostie
QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 7 2008, 01:45 PM)
What Farscape/TNG bits did people think were nicked for Doctor Who then?  I'm struggling to think of anything similar that they did . . .
*



Well I can't think of anything specific from Farscape. But it has been a while since I've seen it.

Never really watched TNG. It was like Dynasty in space.
gulfcoast_highwayman
QUOTE (Chapman Baxter @ Jul 9 2008, 12:36 AM)
And what about when Superman flew round the Earth really fast and made it spin backwards so time went into reverse and Lois didn't die in the earthquake?

Explain THAT away, Mr Smartypants.
*



Superman? PAH!

Rodney Trotter could travel in time by merely walking down a street!
Baz
Looks like The Brig is going to be in the next series of the Sarah Jane Adventures., he's been seen on set.
Svein
QUOTE (Baz @ Jul 9 2008, 12:42 PM)
Looks like The Brig is going to be in the next series of the Sarah Jane Adventures., he's been seen on set.
*

I really should start watching this...
GundamGuy_UK
QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 9 2008, 01:02 AM)
Psh, you're sooooo out of date - we're up to at least ten or eleven dimensions now mate!
*


We only live in 4 though: x, y, z, and t. The others exist outside our plain of existance.

Think of a man who lives on a 2D painting. He can move along the page, and up and down it, and time passes. But he can't move in the z-dimension, and the very idea of it would be impossible to comprehend. Just like how we can't possibly think of what another dimension (let alone several) would be like besides our own 4 that we live in.
curtinparloe
QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 6 2008, 03:22 PM)
Leaving aside all the reality bomb nonsense, something I couldn't work out is why were the Daleks trying to destroy the universe in the first place.  They've always been about conquest and suppressing the lesser races, if they destroy all the universes, what are they going to do with themselves?!

It's like that episode of Earthworm Jim when Evil The Cat almost succeeds in destroying the universe, only to realise that it would be a very. bad. thing.

QUOTE (Same fella)
Also, "There's never been a Human-Timelord metecomplex (was that the right word?) before" has to rank as one of the worst lines of dialogue ever written.
*

"Metacrisis" if memory serves, awful dialogue and silly idea.

QUOTE (Raven @ Jul 6 2008, 01:51 PM)
No.

The US TV movie with Paul McGann claimed he was half-human, but that's generally been ignored by everyone!
*


Except me, clearly. laugh.gif
widowspider
QUOTE (Everlong @ Jul 6 2008, 08:50 AM)
This episode needed more mickey, he's such a badass now. That bit with him kissing the gun and leaving it was great, and the "Captain Cheesecake" "Ok thats too much hugging" bit was priceless. I'll be glad if him and Martha Join torchwood.

I'm seriously gonna miss Donna. I think that ending was a cop-out too, dramatically it'd have been better if she'd died with the happy memories of the doctor and everyone.

Rose coming back.. now i like her, but what did she do this week? Kiss the doctor mk 2? Though her coming back did have more of a dramatic impact for the doctor.

The episode itself fell a bit flat, but still i quite liked it, maybe my last comment of loved it went a bit far. Maybe i liked it due to the fact it tied a lot of stuff up.
*


I'd agree with most of that - I loved parts of it, but others were either too neat in a soap opera kind of way, or just kind of pointless, which was sad. I wanted to see more interaction with the characters, as they just seemed to meet each other really quickly and then all run around a lot doing stuff. There was little dialogue with all these important characters in the Who-verse.

QUOTE (princess_shrek @ Jul 6 2008, 08:58 AM)
I now have gathered my thoughts from last night.

I went through a whole gamut of emotions watching that episode; and I wasn't alone in that.

Granted, the explanation of the failed regeneration was a bit of a copout, but let's face it, the regeneration was only introduced to reintroduce the hand in the jar which was to play a much more important part later on. 

I'm still at a loss about this extra second between the two realities - and why was there no mention of the beetle on Donna's back in this episode, that the Shadow had seen in part 1?  I guess these will never now be resolved and that seems clumsy to me.

I loved the Who 'family' reunion - though apart from not dying, Cap'n Jack was a spare part most of the time.  I loved that he wouldn't hug Donna...but that she found him irresistible.  However, having brought in the whole Who family, he had to find credible ways of putting them back in their respective lives by the end of the episode.

I was chilled by the accuracy of Davros' description of the Doctor ... this peace-lover transforms people, for good or bad, turns them into murderers and willing sacrifices, and leaves everyone behind.  Our hero isn't perhaps as heroic as many viewers think.

RTD was clearly trying to bring all his story arcs to a neat conclusion as his parting gesture.  Perhaps he did that a little too neatly - all those happy endings/beginnings warmed the cockles of my heart but they were too perfect somehow. 

And the ending had me sobbing my heart out.  From the moment Donna stammered on 'binary binary binary' it was obvious that she wasn't going to get a happy ending and that the Doctor had effectively done it again ... and was going to leave her behind.  And Wilf... I just love that character... I cried buckets until well after the credits rolled.
*

Nail-head-hit. The one thing that truly disappointed me, although Tate, Tennant and Cribbins did a spectacular job with it, was Donna's ending. I'd have wanted her to go out with a bang saving the world and at least remembering why. It was very cruel, which in some ways was a good thing for the Doctor's character arc - particularly given the wonderful scene with him and Davros that you mentioned. That was one of my favourite parts of the whole episode.

Bring on the speculation about the next companion! Does anyone know who it's going to be?
gulfcoast_highwayman
QUOTE (widowspider @ Jul 9 2008, 02:31 PM)
Bring on the speculation about the next companion! Does anyone know who it's going to be?
*


Vicky Pollard. Now they've got Tate's demographic they'll want to hang onto it.
Sostie
QUOTE (widowspider @ Jul 9 2008, 02:31 PM)
Bring on the speculation about the next companion! Does anyone know who it's going to be?
*


Well they have until 2010 to pick someone. As with most things at the moment I hoping for a monkey with a gun.
NiteFall
The Stath.
Svein
QUOTE (widowspider @ Jul 9 2008, 02:31 PM)
I'd agree with most of that - I loved parts of it, but others were either too neat in a soap opera kind of way, or just kind of pointless, which was sad. I wanted to see more interaction with the characters, as they just seemed to meet each other really quickly and then all run around a lot doing stuff. There was little dialogue with all these important characters in the Who-verse.
Nail-head-hit. The one thing that truly disappointed me, although Tate, Tennant and Cribbins did a spectacular job with it, was Donna's ending. I'd have wanted her to go out with a bang saving the world and at least remembering why. It was very cruel, which in some ways was a good thing for the Doctor's character arc - particularly given the wonderful scene with him and Davros that you mentioned. That was one of my favourite parts of the whole episode.

Bring on the speculation about the next companion! Does anyone know who it's going to be?
*

If I had been the writer... (and this is where I thought he was going with this)... I would have had Donna = Romana... After all, The Master hid himself, why not Donna as well. Having a Donna/Romana regeneration at the end would have been fab!
gulfcoast_highwayman
QUOTE (Svein @ Jul 9 2008, 02:53 PM)
If I had been the writer...  (and this is where I thought he was going with this)...  I would have had Donna = Romana...  After all, The Master hid himself, why not Donna as well.  Having a Donna/Romana regeneration at the end would have been fab!
*



No. NO NO NO NO...NO!

The Tate woman and lovely Romana (II)? Never.

If they want to bring Romana back, and Lalla feels she is too old, then Sophie Winkleman would be great.

Anyway, next assistant....

If it can't be Jason Mewes as 'Jay', then how about Jewel Staite?
GundamGuy_UK
QUOTE (gulfcoast_highwayman @ Jul 9 2008, 03:01 PM)
If it can't be Jason Mewes as 'Jay', then how about Jewel Staite?
*


Why can't it be Jay? They'd have to show it later, of course.

"Fuck the TARDIS!"
Svein
Kevin Smith as lead writer, I can see it now...

Timerats
Chasing K9
Withnail
QUOTE (Sostie @ Jul 9 2008, 09:29 AM)
Well I can't think of anything specific from Farscape.  But it has been a while since I've seen it.


The Two Doctors bit was ripped off from Season 2(?) of Farscape when Chrichton was duplicated for half of the season.
Withnail
QUOTE (Svein @ Jul 9 2008, 02:39 PM)
Kevin Smith as lead writer, I can see it now...

Timerats
Chasing K9
*



Tin Dogma.
Raven
Ah, I wondered what you were getting at.

I'd be surprised if that was the inspiration for Doctor Two, but you never know.

What was the TNG refernce?

ETA:

QUOTE (Withnail @ Jul 9 2008, 03:57 PM)
Tin Dogma.
*


"Omega" would be more apt!
gulfcoast_highwayman
QUOTE (Withnail @ Jul 9 2008, 03:57 PM)
Tin Dogma.
*



The winner!
Zoe
QUOTE (widowspider @ Jul 9 2008, 02:31 PM)
Bring on the speculation about the next companion! Does anyone know who it's going to be?
*


My new flatmate was being a Sugababe (filming a sketch show) with Velile Tshabalala last week. She's a bit of a companion in the Christmas special, apparently.
Wife Of Rolex
QUOTE (Withnail @ Jul 9 2008, 03:56 PM)
The Two Doctors bit was ripped off from Season 2(?) of Farscape when Chrichton was duplicated for half of the season.
*


That was the very Farscape scenario I was thinking of. It was season 3.
widowspider
QUOTE (Zoe @ Jul 9 2008, 04:21 PM)
My new flatmate was being a Sugababe (filming a sketch show) with Velile Tshabalala last week. She's a bit of a companion in the Christmas special, apparently.
*

I've never heard of her before. Is she any good?
Raven
If you Google her, the first page of the image search is pretty much all Doctor Who.
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